Odd Crusader Problem

[imported_scott_m]

Hi folks, great web site. I've been able to learn and get a bunch of help for my Merc 135 outboard. I know this isn't a crusader site, but here goes anyway. I've been helping a buddy of mine bring an old 1984 Viking 35 convertible up to snuff. The boat was repowered about 3-4 years ago with new Crusader 350XL (454 ci fuel injected) motors and transmissions. These are computer controlled motors, with electric fuel pumps and "2 barrel" throttle body injection. Once the motors are up and running they are very smooth and powerful.<br /><br />Our problem is this...on the port motor, it can be difficult to crank cold. When it does start cold, it idles up to 1500 or so for warm up, but does not come back down (the starboard motor idles up to 1500, but after 60 seconds or so, returns to 750 rpm). We've tried to "clear the motor" by blipping the throttle but it stays hung around 1500. This is too high to shift into gear. The only way to get the RPM's down is to shut down the motor and restart. This presents an additional problem, because once shut down, the motor is VERY VERY difficult to restart (probably 15-30 tries). Again, once fired, she runs great.<br /><br />We've done plugs, wires, cap, rotor, timing, water seps, fuel filters, and did a de-carb on the top end. Ideas? Sure would appreciate any help y'all can offer.<br /><br />Thanks.<br /><br />Scott<br />scott_mayers@Hotmail.com

 

[Don S]

Re: Odd Crusader Problem

The 350Xl is actually a 5.7, not a 454. Plus the TBI was not used on the 454. <br />Regarding your problem, check the throttle cable and make sure it's bringing the throttle all the way back to idle. Other possibilities could be a bad or mis adjusted TPS (Throttle Position Sensor) or a defective IAC Valve (Idle air control)

 

[jimmythekid]

Re: Odd Crusader Problem

Presuming you have a 350ci small block<br />My diagnostic strategy: check ALL basics first: fuel pressure, SES light, good stong spark. These will probly check okay, but I always start there. Just to be sure to avoid a misdiagnosis<br /><br />Service engine soon light on? <br /><br />if yes you need to find out why, a TPS problem would turn the light on. An IAC may or may not depending on the problem if there is one with the IAC, MAP sensor check as well<br /><br />If not first check for vacuum leaks, granted its probly not that because you said it idles down after a restart, but check anyway. Fuel pressure is suspect as well with a no start like you describe I do not know the specs but they are easy to find.<br /><br />IAC are known to go bad on GM TBI injection, causing the high idle, but will not usually cause a no start unless stuck closed, when that happens, the ONLY air getting to the cylinders is by way of the very small opening past the throttle plate. Does opening the throttle "help" it to start??<br /><br />CHECK THE GROUNDS!! Do a voltage drop test on all grounds. Hook negative (black) lead from DVOM directly to battery ground cable at the battery, with the positive lead of DVOM probe ALL grounds, including the grounds to the ECM the voltage on the meter should not exceed 50 millivolts MAX the less the better I like it when it less than 35 millivolts but 50 is standard, try to do this while engine is running, (all circuits will have a load on them)provided the batterys are fully charged, sounds like ypou may have a ground problem, indicated by the slow cranking you describe. A poor ground could also cause a slow IAC response<br /><br />Last but not least when engine is cold the ECM operates in open loop, operatiing on a set of instructions that is programmed on a chip inside the ECM, taking reading from only a few sensors. When warmed up, approx 160 degrees or higher,(maybe a little lower on a marine engine) the ECM goes into closed loop, where the ECM operates the engine taking readings from all the sensors. You didnt say whether or not the engine was warmed up when it idled down, but it is imperative to know that when trying to diagnose something like this. Might turn out to be a coolant temp senser. Sensor failures are rare but they do occur. More often than not it turns out to be a bad wire, or poor connections.<br />try this unplug one at a time, any and all connectors you can find including the ECM connector inspect for "green" oxidization, and replug back in. Belive it or not this has "fixed" many a problem on the stuff I work on every day.<br />good luck. peace

 

[Don S]

Re: Odd Crusader Problem

Service engine soon light on?

I have never seen one of those lights on a boat before........something new to one specific model??<br /><br />Actually the best thing to do is get a service manual and follow the troubleshooting charts. It actually saves a lot of time instead of a hit and miss method as people offer suggestions and thoughts

 

[jimmythekid]

Re: Odd Crusader Problem

sorry scott_m I guess there is no light <br /><br />DonS isn't there some way for the ECM to indicate a fault to the operator? There has to be some way of pulling codes. I was just trying to help the guy, if there isn't there should be, ive seen SES lights on lawnmowers for goodness sakes. Anyways I think his problem has to do with a poor ground somewhere, educate me a little, my boat doesnt have EFI, but I work on EFI cars all day long, no flames please I know a boat isn't a car, but how does the ECM inform the operator of a fault, other than not starting or running bad? I too know the virtues of having a GOOD manual for reference, but I also believe that breaking out a manual to follow a trouble tree can sometimes be a complete waste of time, and other times you can't fix it without one. Sometimes you follow the trouble tree exactly, and it gives you a misdiagnosis There has to be a light, or LED somewhere to indicate a fault no?? I admit I may not have known what I was talking about when It came to an SES light on a boat thanks for setting me straight

 

[jimmythekid]

Re: Odd Crusader Problem

by the way I DO NOT work on boats every day, I specialize in engine drivability and air conditioning on automotive and light trucks, and I work part time maintaining lawn care equipment. most of which can be applied to boats as well, or so I thought peace

 

[Don S]

Re: Odd Crusader Problem

Volvo and Mercruiser both have systems available for a great amount of $$$$ that can warn you of problems, but, no SES lights or automatic reading of codes on marine EFI engines plus these systems are not on very many new boats because of the cost.<br />There are similarities in EFI systems with automotive, but also lots of differences. What works on cars doesn't always work on boats.<br />Following the troubleshooting charts on an EFI is the best way to START the troubleshooting process, especially if you aren't familiar with it to begin with.<br />Over many years of working on marine engines, I have found the automotive mechanics usually don't know there are marine specific parts that should not be replaced with automotive, and giving advise on things that aren't there or can't happen, not trying to flame or anything like that, it just doesn't help cure the problem.<br />Here is a guy asking about a friends boat and admittedly doesn't know anything about inboards, and you are sending him looking for codes on a light that doesn't exist. That is the kind of information that causes problems. Now if he had the troubleshooting chart, checked everything on the list (and yes it would have included the grounds) and still had the problem, then is when he should have asked what to look for.

 

[jimmythekid]

Re: Odd Crusader Problem

gotcha ill stick with the facts i know from now on <br />I take it mercruiser and volvo use ther own efi system not supplied by GM IE ECM<br />I just assumed that that GM supplied the electronics and If they do why would mercrusier/volvo/crusader specify not to have that function built in? At the very least some kind of on board diagnostics for the engine, it would seem to make life easier for everybody. But you know what they say when someone assumes something. i know about all the explosion hazzards and such, but some simple circuitry inside the ECM would not be that expensive at all. Oh well thanks for the schooling. peace

 

[Bondo]

Re: Odd Crusader Problem

I think I'd do what I do to Every Electronic Contraption that gives Me Grief..............<br /><br />UnPlug it,+ Let it Cool Down for awhile.........<br />Then, Reboot,+ See What Happens............<br />Of Course, <br />That's After I've done the Shake, Wiggle, Pull,+ Clean Test on All the electrical connections........Grounds Included........ <br /><br />If that don't Work,<br />Then I,

Actually the best thing to do is get a service manual and follow the troubleshooting charts. It actually saves a lot of time instead of a hit and miss method as people offer suggestions and thoughts<br />

 

[snapperbait]

Re: Odd Crusader Problem

Most of em' use GM MEFI ecms...<br /><br />Rinda makes the Codemate which is an "el-cheap-o" code reader for the MEFI.. http://216.230.203.183/marine/marine.htm

 

[Don S]

Re: Odd Crusader Problem

Most of em' use GM MEFI ecms...

NO, they do not use GM ECM's, Volvo and Mercruiser both use different ones and neither are like the GM ECM, even if they look like the GM ecm's on the outside, the insides of the ecm is different and are not reprogramable. Yes Rinda makes code readers and the diagonstic tools that Merc and VP uses. But both Merc and VP have their own software cartridges that talks with the ecm's.<br /><br />PS: Hey jimmythekid, Never assume anything from the marine industry, it will come back and bite you on the butt every time...... Have a good one.

 

[imported_scott_m]

Re: Odd Crusader Problem

Hi guys, thanks for the reply. I was thinking this weekend either TPS or IAC. The sticker on the top of the flame arrestor said 350XL which I assumed referred to the HP of the motor, not displacement. It is definately a big block...you can tell by the width of the heads/valve covers. As I said, the boat is new to us, and has been cobbled together over many years, so no surprise they have the motor badged wrong. Also, this is a Crusader, not a merc or volvo. Trust me when I tell you it is a 2 barrel throttle body injection. I've seen it with my own eyes. No multi-port. It does have an ECM and electric fuel pump, so connections there may be lose as well. And, yes, I happen to know quite a bit about inboard motors. I've kept the two 340HP big blocks in my wellcraft happy for about 7 years now, plus have worked on darn near every boat on my dock at the marina. What I'm not as familiar with is the Crusader brand and this "hodge-podge" fuel injection system.<br /><br />Scott

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Odd Crusader Problem

hello<br /> try to get us some pics.<br /> the older crusader 350 was indeed a big block. on the bell housing there should be a plate. but pics would be nice. especially if you think its been cobbled.

 

[Don S]

Re: Odd Crusader Problem

Ya gotta worry about a company that designates an engine a 350XL, and it can be either a big block or a small block. Must keep the parts guys guessing. However, it is the marine industry, and isn't really that big a surprise. <br /><br />You are still going to need a manual for the engine, or you have no basis of checking each item against. No ohm specs, fuel pump specs, nothing.

 

[imported_scott_m]

Re: Odd Crusader Problem

Agree, the service manual is going to be the way to go. Sorry, no pics available. I'm in St. Pete, FL and my buddy and his boat are on Lake Lanier, GA. Seems like finding the right combination of parts for these motors is always a bear. I've done some TPS diagnosis on other vehicles in the past, and you're right, if we can get the specs on TPS (cold) idle voltage and compare to actual, I think we'll get somewhere. My thinking is that the computer may tell the motor not to fire if TPS voltage is greater than a preset when cold. Anyway, thanks again....just hoping someone will recognize the symptom and description of the motor set up.<br /><br />Scott

 

[AIRNAUTIQUE4EVER]

Re: Odd Crusader Problem

On the older Crusader motors they already had a diagnostic device(winky blinky) on the harness where you would hook up to the computer. Check that to make sure it does not have the switch turned on. also what do you mean by difficult to crank? rolls over slowly or rolls over normal?

 

[newport dave]

Re: Odd Crusader Problem

It really sounds like a IAC problem. This is the IAC functional test from the Crusader XLi series service manual (part # TECM612) covering throttle body injected 305,350,454, and 502, years 1993 to 1997. It's unclear to me if this covers your engine or not, but here it is.<br /><br />Step 1<br />a) Start engine, allow idle to stabilize, and record engine RPM<br />b) Ignition "off" for ten seconds<br />c) Disconnect IAC harness connector<br />d) Restart engine and note RPM. RPM should be at least 200 RPM higher than recorded RPM. Is it?<br /><br />yes - go to step 2<br />no - go to step 3<br /><br />Step 2<br />a) Reinstall IAC harness connector. Engine speed should gradually return within 75 RPM of recorded RPM within 30 seconds. Does it?<br /><br />yes - IAC circuit functioning properly<br />no - go to step 3<br /><br />Step 3<br />a) Ignition "off" for ten seconds<br />b) IAC harness connector disconnected<br />c) Restart engine<br />d) With a test light connected to ground, probe each one of the four IAC terminals, and the test light should blink when touched to all terminals. Does it?<br /><br />yes - Check IAC circuit that did not blink for an open or shorted circuit or poor connection. If okay, replace ECM.<br />no - Check for poor IAC connections. Repair or replace sticky or faulty IAC valve.<br /><br />CAUTION: I wrote out the steps exactly as they appear in the service manual. However it appears to me that the "yes" and "no" answers in the final step (Step 3) are swapped.<br /><br />Dave

 

[DJ]

Re: Odd Crusader Problem

Perhaps this will help. You may want to contact Crusader.<br /><br /> http://www.crusaderengines.com/

 

[Buttanic]

Re: Odd Crusader Problem

If it was a old fashion, out of date, behind the times carburator it would probably would have been diagnosed and fixed by now. Simple is good.

 

[jimmythekid]

Re: Odd Crusader Problem

newport dave: Im surprised it doesn't say<br />replace ECM with known good unit and retest <br /><br />try swapping the IAC from the "good engine" to the "bad one" Take ya a whole 5 minutes. If that.<br /><br /><br />Buttanic: yeah with a 400 dollar carb, and a host of other parts maybe, but if you understand EFI and BASIC voltages, and know how to use a DVOM<br />EFI is WAY more simple. If you know what to look for and have the proper wiring schematic (read manual) you can find most problems pretty quickly even without a SES light <br />Right DON S?? <br /><br />I still think it sounds like a poor ground or low system voltage.<br /><br />Scott email me jimpetrick@tampabay.rr.com you live just across the skyway from me, and I am not doing anything this weekend I would be happy to help you out.