Newbie. Any words of advice?

[Uraijit]

Hey guys, this is my first post, though I've been reading the forum since August when I bought my first boat.

It's a 1981 Sea Ray 195 with a Mercruiser 350 engine. I'm brand new to boating, so I've got lots to learn. The boat was purchased with a seized engine.

The story the guy told me was that he had the outdrive rebuilt, and the dealer reinstalled it improperly, there was a water leak. He took the boat back, and they re-set the outdrive and fixed the leak. The didn't replace the bilge plug though.

Einstein didn't bother to do his pre-startup checks, and failed to notice the missing plug before taking it out for a week on the lake. After launching and driving it across the lake, while unloading their houseboat at the beach to set up camp, the boat took on a considerable amount of water. They came back and discovered their sinking boat in time to save it. The owner sent his wife across the lake to locate a plug, while he stayed behind with his finger in the hole al la Little Dutch Boy.

When the wife came back an hour later with a plug, he installed it, but without pumping/bailing out the bilge, decided to drive it back across the lake to get it up on a trailer to drain in.

Apparently the engine was semi-submerged, and the engine got water in the oil, seizing the engine. He decided he didn't want to invest the money to replace the engine in a 26 year-old boat, and instead sold it to me for $1200.

I plan on pulling a pre-'87 350 chevy truck engine, and marinizing it. I'll probably just leave the truck cam in, but will change over the following:

Head Gaskets -- Felpro (no steel)
Freeze Plugs
Oil Pan
Distributor
Starter
Water Pump
Harmonic Balancer
Valve covers
Alternator
Intake/Carbs
Gasket set

Am I missing anything? I'm a total newbie to boats. I worked for a few years as an automotive mechanic, so I dig engines pretty well. I don't, however, know the first thing about outdrives, etc.

I'll probably pull the outdrive before I pull the engine, and then pay a dealer to re-install it, so that the alignment is right. The outdrive was just rebuilt, so I shouldn't have to worry about it to much, but is there anything I should check/look for while I've got the thing apart?

Any suggestions or input would be highly welcome!

 

[Fishermark]

Re: Newbie. Any words of advice?

Too late now, but the hull is probably waterlogged (the foam) and weighs a ton more than it should!

Also, make suer your exhaust manifolds and risers are good - that's the more common way for water to enter an engine.

 

[oops!]

Re: Newbie. Any words of advice?

welcome to i boats........


great site as you've seen.

dont forget the flame supressor on the carb.....

and ....why the balancer?

and btw the cam is different in a bote.......so id do that too....

more guys are comin with more answers....

cheers....looking foward to reading your posts

oops

 

[starsnstripers]

Re: Newbie. Any words of advice?

I believe that a tuck cam left in on a 350 will be doggie. may have to reprop but i dont think you will ever get it where it's suppose to be with WOT and take off on to plane. So i've heard. But other than that it sounds like your on the right track. Good luck

 

[Uraijit]

Re: Newbie. Any words of advice?

Is there anything do be done about the "waterlogging" or is the hull ruined? Not what I wanted to hear...

As far as the carbs go, I'll just swap the whole unit over, manifold, carb, and all.

The Harmonic balancer probably doesn't matter, but I thought I'd read somewhere on here that it was supposed to be changed as well. If not, I probably won't worry about it, as long as all the pulleys match up.

I'll probably only end up keeping this boat for a season or two, so I don't want to invest a lot of money in it. My understanding is that a truck cam is close enough to a marine came that it will run well like that.

If I were building this engine for the long term, I'd probably do a fuel-injection system conversion, cam, bore and stroke, roller lifters and rockers... The works.

 

[Don S]

Re: Newbie. Any words of advice?

The Harmonic balancer probably doesn't matter, but I thought I'd read somewhere on here that it was supposed to be changed as well.

You can read about anything on a forum. But YOU have to make sure the information is accurate.
VERY few, if any, change the harmonic balancer without a reason. Serious rust, cracked rubber ring, would indicate one that may need changed. But don't just change it because "Someone on a forum" said it. It's amazing how much bad information is spread in forums, along with the good.

 

[supercab78]

Re: Newbie. Any words of advice?

Uraijit: I have a 1975 searay 18ft, I've been running 351 windsor car engine for 20 years now. I didn't change the cam and pulls very strong. If you have the ablility you could change the cam from the old engine, just remember not to mix up the lifter positions. As for as your foam being waterlogged, here is my single experience with that. Just this fall I bought a project boat (18ft. wellcraft 140 IO).The floor was completely rotted, boat set out uncovered for years. We used it 4 times to work out mechanical bugs and make sure it was mechanicaly sound. It run 37mph with 3 people. After removing the whole floor, I removed and weight the foam around 180 lbs. That was after years of exposure yours may or may not be as bad. Just thought I'd give you one man's small experience. You could drill a small hole in the floor somewhere. Then push a screw driver or something in foam untill it hits the hull and see if comes out wet. Good luck and welcome aboard.

 

[Uraijit]

Re: Newbie. Any words of advice?

You can read about anything on a forum. But YOU have to make sure the information is accurate.
VERY few, if any, change the harmonic balancer without a reason. Serious rust, cracked rubber ring, would indicate one that may need changed. But don't just change it because "Someone on a forum" said it. It's amazing how much bad information is spread in forums, along with the good.

Cool then, I probably won't change it over. I don't see why it would matter though, if there's no difference, then swapping it out shouldn't affect anything, right? If I'm already tearing the thing down anyway to replace head-gaskets, timing cover gaskets, oil pan, etc. The balancer's coming off anyway, so it wouldn't really be any more work to swap it out... Thanks for the heads up though, I'll just use whichever balancer appears to be in better shape.

Uraijit: I have a 1975 searay 18ft, I've been running 351 windsor car engine for 20 years now. I didn't change the cam and pulls very strong. If you have the ablility you could change the cam from the old engine, just remember not to mix up the lifter positions. As for as your foam being waterlogged, here is my single experience with that. Just this fall I bought a project boat (18ft. wellcraft 140 IO).The floor was completely rotted, boat set out uncovered for years. We used it 4 times to work out mechanical bugs and make sure it was mechanicaly sound. It run 37mph with 3 people. After removing the whole floor, I removed and weight the foam around 180 lbs. That was after years of exposure yours may or may not be as bad. Just thought I'd give you one man's small experience. You could drill a small hole in the floor somewhere. Then push a screw driver or something in foam untill it hits the hull and see if comes out wet. Good luck and welcome aboard.

So, removing the foam won't hurt it though, right? The foam's just there for form while the fiberglass is layed up, correct? I'll do the check and see if it's wet, while the engine's out. Thanks for the tips guys!

Also, how do you check risers? I plan on getting a manual, soon, but like I said, I don't know much about boats or boat-specific parts.

 

[supercab78]

Re: Newbie. Any words of advice?

The foam is there for floatation and on my 1975 searay I think it gave some support to the floor. The reason I say that is when I replaced some flooring in Searay I saw that they injected the foam through holes in the floor which made it come up tight against the bottom of the floor.Filling all voids. The floor inself was only 1/2 inch thick. On the wellcraft the floor was 3/4 inch thick and had more strings in it, but the foam was NOT up to the bottom of the floor.

 

[Uraijit]

Re: Newbie. Any words of advice?

Okay, like I said, I know nothing about boats. But how does the foam assist floatation? I thought the hull was sealed. Wouldn't foam just add unnecessary mass? I can savvy it being there for reenforcement, I just can't see how it helps it float. I'm not trying to argue, just trying to understand.

I think the only place that's likely to have gotten waterlogged was the engine compartment, so I probably don't even have to worry about it, but if I end up having to remove foam, do I have to replace it? If so, do I just buy a big tank of expanding foam and pump some in there?

This is all hypothetical, I doubt I'll go to that much trouble on a boat I plan on getting rid of after a season or two...

 

[BAYLINER185]

Re: Newbie. Any words of advice?

New boats have a 3/4 marin plywood floor ust so you know. So on older boat may have been cheeply made....Supprising for a SeaRay if you ask me.'

Yea the foam is for flotation and should be replaced if its drenched.


Ive been reading this forum a lot sinceJuly, Im not a machanic so all I know is from what Ive read but suposidly an auto cam will wind up causing the motor to suck up water through the exhaust. Thats why marin engines use a marine cam. So I dont understand how some people run an auto cam and have no problems and others say that they have had problems.

I have read that especially with the 350 engine it will suck up water with a stock non marine cam. So I would look into this issue with a machanic that knows for sure again all I can offer is from what I have read.

 

[Uraijit]

Re: Newbie. Any words of advice?

New boats have a 3/4 marin plywood floor ust so you know. So on older boat may have been cheeply made....Supprising for a SeaRay if you ask me.'

Yea the foam is for flotation and should be replaced if its drenched.


Ive been reading this forum a lot sinceJuly, Im not a machanic so all I know is from what Ive read but suposidly an auto cam will wind up causing the motor to suck up water through the exhaust. Thats why marin engines use a marine cam. So I dont understand how some people run an auto cam and have no problems and others say that they have had problems.

I have read that especially with the 350 engine it will suck up water with a stock non marine cam. So I would look into this issue with a machanic that knows for sure again all I can offer is from what I have read.

Truck engines tend to be cammed on the torquey side. Everything I've read says that marine cam is pretty similar. And that if you use an "auto" cam it's another story. I've been looking at the profiles of Marine cams available on SummitRacing, and they're quite similar to the truck cams.

I don't have any way of knowing exactly what cam I'll end up with when I pull an engine, but I'm planning on getting one out of a truck, so it should be pretty close.

If I end up having to replace the cam down the road, I'll kick myself twice for you.

The way I look at it, $120 is worth several hours of my labor on my current pay scale. So if it works, I save $120, if it doesn't it still costs me $120, and a few extra hours of labor... Maybe I'm just cheap like that.

Again, this isn't a keeper. I just want it for a season or two, until I can afford something a little nicer. As long as it runs strong enough to pull a wake-board, and tubes, and it's not sucking water into the cylinders, I'll be satisfied.

I'd probably hang onto this one, but it's a closed bow, and NOT a cuddy cab. It's like the worst of both worlds in that regard. My wife and I are pretty partial to the open-bow boats. This one was just too good a deal to let go.

I'd swap out the old cam from the engine that's in it, but like I said, the engine was ruined by running it with water in the oil, so the cam is probably shot as well.

 

[Haut Medoc]

Re: Newbie. Any words of advice?

The truck cam will be close enough......​

 

[ziggy]

Re: Newbie. Any words of advice?

congrats on the new boat man.... from the read here i guess i'd be concerened with the boat (foam, floor, stingers, especially motor mounts, transom) since yer gonna have yer engine out anyways, ya can get a much better look with it out. ya can do yer test holes too.... check it over good. for w/o a good transom and stringers for the engine to mount too, everything else is a moot point.... i dead lined my trisonic for bad stringers and motor mount area....

as for the engine. from what i read, ya'll be fine with a truck engine... includeing the cam...... guess if yer real concered. ya could find out about yer oem cam specs and compare them to the specs on the cam in the truck engine..... any differences and i'd find out the ramificatons of the difference somehow....

as for the drive. if it was sunk enough to get the engine in the water. ya better check the drive.... the drive shaft goes thru an open hole in the back of the boat. leads right to the ujoints and ft. seal of the drive. water in that area is bad... the ft. seal keeps gear lub in, not water out.... check yer gear lub...check for metal particals and presece of water... ya might as well get yer alignment tool now.... ya'll need it for end of year service anyways as alignment is a yearly pm item along with greaseing of the coupler splines....

ya might check every electrical connection too since it was half sunk.... clean em shiney.....

use only marine parts.....

if the engine was semi submerged. how does that get water in the engine.... it's a sealed unit

i'd believe nothing the po told you.... includeing about the drive rebuild. lessin he's got reciepts. and even if he did, being sunk and water high enough to get into the engine somehow.... it would get to the drive too.....

 

[dcg9381]

Re: Newbie. Any words of advice?

Is there anything do be done about the "waterlogging" or is the hull ruined? Not what I wanted to hear...

Before you get too far into this, recognize that you're going to have a *lot* of time into it and probably a significant amount of money. Even if you place a low value on your time and consider this a hobby, you could probably get yourself a very nice boat of the same vintage that's been stored indoors, babied, and runs great for $3k.

You will have more than that into it, especially if you consider the time/hassle factor.

I don't know SeaRay.. If being soaked is a concern, I'd take it by an independent marine dealer and see what they say. Boats are made to get wet, even on the inside.. If the water is properly removed and not allowed to sit generally they can survive for many years. If this particular design had flaws in it that allowed water to soak the foam - someone needs to confirm. I've heard of stringers and floors rotting, but don't know anything about structural foam break down. I'd get someone that knows these boats. It's hard to tell you on a forum if it's "ruined".

Floor / Stringer replacements are not fun. I've done 2. They're second only to transom replacements - just make sure your hull is solid before you put a ton of work into the boat. 1/2 done boat projects are a dime a dozen...

 

[tmh]

Re: Newbie. Any words of advice?

Well, first off, $1200 for a 26 year old boat without a working engine is no steal. IF the hull, floor and stringers are OK that's about what it's worth.

Floatation foam is designed to not soak up water readily and to be extremely light-weight (low density). This helps float your boat if you have a breach in the hull, say you hit a rock and it rips a hole in your hull. It does not float the boat under normal conditions, just emergency sinking conditions when water is in the hull.

Now, a 26 year old boat often already has somewhat soaked foam, then sink it for a while and who knows. You need to find out what's going on under the floor. It's no big deal, maybe drill a hole and then dig down to the bottom and see if it's wet. Or, maybe cut a small section of the floor out in the back (under the seating area so you'll never see the patch) and see if the foam is fairly dry and the wood is sound (stringers).

Good luck.

 

[whywhyzed]

Re: Newbie. Any words of advice?

....

 

[Uraijit]

Re: Newbie. Any words of advice?

Yeah, maybe not where you are, but this same boat in running condition is about $3500-$4000. This boat was kept inside (they didn't even own a cover for it, because it was stored indoors), and the interior is in great shape. There are a few normal dings and scratches that would be expected from such an old boat, but it's otherwise in good shape, and well taken care of.

He did have receipts for the outdrive/sterndrive work on it, but I'll be sure to check everything out before I go putting it back together. If water got inside the engine, it's likely that it did get inside the drive as well. Thanks again for the responses guys!

 

[Uraijit]

Re: Newbie. Any words of advice?

Well, just an update for you folks who offered your kind advice. I got the old engine pulled out, and went to the salvage yard in search of a replacement block. I found the Holy Grail of engines, in a virtually brand-new GM Goodwrench crate motor. Pulled the heads to replace with composite gaskets, and found a little flash rust in 2 cylinders. The other 6 cylinders were PRISTINE. The engine looked brand-new! The rings hadn't even fully seated. Since I had to hone the rust out of 2 cylinders, I went ahead and replaced all the rings and re-honed the cylinders before slapping it back together.

Engine was $99 (including core, which I couldn't justify the gas money to return). Put about $120 into rings, a full gasket set, and some brass freeze plugs. Didn't bother with the cam.

You guys reckon this is a good find for a boat application?

This engine sells new for about $1999+shipping. I've got about $220 invested in it.

The foam was bone-dry.

I went ahead and ripped out the old carpet, and replaced it with some newer prettier stuff. I plan on doing the vinyl next. It looks kinda goofy with silver carpet, and brown vinyl, but once I get some white vinyl in there, it should improve the looks dramatically. Paint for the boat will be the final step.

Got the engine running on muffs, and did a cam break-in (just incase, because a couple of lifters got mixed up during the rebuilt) and splashed the boat today. It took about 10 min of idle speed to get out of the no-wake zone, and I hated every second of it, because low-speed's no good for break-in.

Literally 10 feet short of the no wake buoys, we went to throttle up a little, and as soon as we touched the throttle, it died. Wouldn't re-start no matter how I coaxed it. It got real close a couple of times, but eventually drained the battery. Ended up getting towed back in, and going home in shame.

Took her home, and after about 5 min. of cranking, got it to fire up and idle just fine. Still dies as soon as you give it much throttle. I can ease into it, and get it up around 2500 RPM, but any sudden throttle change, and it dies. Gonna try a new coil and wires (the coil wire is pretty shot). Since the problem didn't come around until the engine was pretty hot, I'm thinking the coil might be the culprit.

 

[chiefalen]

Re: Newbie. Any words of advice?

I don't know what you did about fuel delivery?

Checked all the filters?

Carb rebuilt? Maybe the most important.

Fuel pump checked?

Check valve?

Cleaned all the connections? Grounds also?

Whats it got, points?

Plug wires? New?

Hows the battery cables? Good power to the starter?

Good luck hope it works out for you