Moral Dilemma

scoutboater

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
Jun 7, 2010
Messages
78
Hey Everybody, got one for ya. I'm just looking for opinions on this btw.

I took a job about 8 months ago cleaning the meat department at ******. When I was hired, the market manager impressed upon me that it was my job to clean the market most of the time (5 nights a week as it has been), and of course talk to the customers and keep the cases full. Now, I understood this as my primary duty - cleaning the meat market, and some secondary duties - helping members and keeping the case full.

No Problem, I can do all of that.

Now heres the problem: He pulls me aside the other day and gives me a 'verbal warning' about how long it is taking me to clean. I admit, I could be faster. They have shown me shortcuts on things, such as not taking the band saw all the way apart every night, or leaving certain pieces in the grinder. However, I feel that its my job to clean the room to the point that nobody gets sick, not just to pass inspection. I have tried all of the tricks they showed me, and I've picked up a few small things.

All that said, heres my actually question: If it were you, would you insist on the room being completely clean and sanitary; or would you compromise, mostly clean stuff, and risk somebody getting sick?
 

LippCJ7

Vice Admiral
Joined
Sep 20, 2010
Messages
5,431
Re: Moral Dilemma

I would never do something that challenged my integrity, if you feel that your supervisor/boss is doing that I would go over his/her head in a heartbeat. If you feel that the instructions the manager gave you are not sufficient to comply with health codes then I would do what it takes to comply with health codes AND aggressively look for a new job.
 

Bondo

Moderator
Staff member
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Apr 17, 2002
Messages
70,584
Re: Moral Dilemma

I admit, I could be faster.

Ayuh,.... 'nough said,...

Maybe it's time to look for a job you're Better at....
 

Fireman431

Rear Admiral
Joined
Sep 17, 2007
Messages
4,292
Re: Moral Dilemma

Prior to going over the bosses' head, have you explained to him as you have to us about your concerns? Explain that you are concerned with maintaining cleanliess and your are trying some of the short cuts you have learned, but you would like some additional pointers from him to help you do your job better.

So when your boss tries to let you go for not being fast enough, you can explain to his boss how you asked for additional help to improve and were denied (if that is the case). No sense jumping the chain of command unless you can't get the relief you need from your immediate supervisor...that will get you fired.
 

JB

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Mar 25, 2001
Messages
45,907
Re: Moral Dilemma

You and your boss need to agree on exactly what "clean" means, both as an activity and as an outcome, and document your agreement. Then you need to agree how long that ought to take when it includes interruptions to deal with customers and keeping cases full.

Expectations must be realistic and consistent. Otherwise you are on a one way trip to unemployment.
 

jonesg

Admiral
Joined
Feb 22, 2008
Messages
7,174
Re: Moral Dilemma

Just do the job they want you to do until such time that you are qualified to be the boss. Til then...
 

Chris-R

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Aug 31, 2010
Messages
183
Re: Moral Dilemma

Are you Servesafe certified? If so, then do what you are supposed to do according to your training. If not, then you should find out if you are trying to do more than public health codes require. You always want to do what the law requires of you but you do not have to do more than that. Maybe your manager sees you doing more than you're supposed to do or maybe you are a worker who is slower than what the manager wants.
 

rbh

Fleet Admiral
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Mar 21, 2009
Messages
7,939
Re: Moral Dilemma

When it comes to cleaning an area were meat is butchered, There is no "SHORTCUTS"

OTTAWA ? Maple Leaf Foods expanded a product recall Saturday after test results confirmed that an outbreak of listeriosis that has claimed four lives across Canada is linked to processed meats produced at one of the company?s plants.

The expanded recall will include all products from the Toronto facility ?as a precautionary measure,? the company said.

The Canadian Food Inspection Agency and the Public Health Agency of Canada have been testing samples of recalled meat for the past week to determine the source of a fatal outbreak of listeriosis.

At a news conference late Saturday night, Agriculture Minister Gerry Ritz and public health officials announced that results of genetic testing from three samples of the recalled products show that two tested positive for the outbreak strain of listeria. A third was a close match, but with a slight variance.

The results are ?highly significant? and show the investigation is ?on the right path,? said the statement by the Public Health Agency of Canada.

More test results are expected next week.

Maple Leaf began a recall of two of its brands last Sunday and, soon after, expanded the recall to 23 and shut down its Toronto plant for a thorough cleaning and inspection by investigators.

Since then, health authorities have been scrambling to determine how many deaths or illnesses can be confirmed as linked to ingestion of the particularly deadly strain of the Listeria monocytogenes bacterium carried in the contaminated food.

Michael McCain, president and chief executive officer of Maple Leaf, said the company has a culture of food safety with standards ?well beyond? what regulators require.

?This week, our best efforts failed,? he said at a news conference in Toronto after the test results were announced Saturday night.

The additional product recall is expected to be implemented swiftly, with a list of affected products to be published by the company Sunday morning.

In the meantime, the Toronto facility remains closed during ?the most comprehensive sanitization possible,? McCain said, adding the process is expected to be complete by early this week.

McCain called the fatal outbreak a ?terrible tragedy? that has shaken confidence in Maple Leaf.

"Tragically, our products have been linked to illness and loss of life,?_McCain continued. ?To those people who are ill, and to the families who have lost loved ones, I offer my deepest and sincerest sympathies. Words cannot begin to express our sadness for their pain."

Earlier Saturday, the Public Health Agency of Canada upped to 21 the number of cases of the listeriosis outbreak that have been confirmed so far in four provinces. The agency said 16 of the cases were found in Ontario, three in British Columbia, and one each in Saskatchewan and in Quebec.

Three deaths in Ontario ? St. Catharines, Hamilton and Waterloo ? have been officially tied to the deadly strain of the food-borne listeria bacterium, and a fourth death on Vancouver Island has also been attributed to the strain.

The public health agency also said a further 30 suspected cases remain under investigation. Of those, 14 are in Ontario, eight are in Quebec, four are in Alberta and two each are in B.C. and Saskatchewan.

The investigation, which involves the Canadian Food Inspection Agency and provincial and local health authorities, involves an analysis of health information from sick individuals, and cross-referencing any findings against the result of tests on food.

Eating food contaminated with listeria can lead to the development of listeriosis, a food-borne illness.

Symptoms of listeriosis are often flu-like and can include nausea, vomiting, cramps, diarrhea, high fever, severe headache, neck stiffness, constipation and persistent fever.

Symptoms usually appear within two to 30 days, but it can take up to 90 days to get sick after someone has eaten contaminated food.

The agency said Saturday it expects the number of confirmed and suspected cases to increase over the next several weeks.

On Friday, Dr. Richard Schabas, medical officer of health for Hastings and Prince Edward counties in Ontario, said another elderly man was found to have died of the same cause in July.

However, federal officials have not confirmed that case as being among those tied to the outbreak. CFIA official Paul Mayers said Saturday he had no information about that case.

Earlier Saturday, the food inspection agency and Royal Touch Foods warned the public not to serve or consume the Shopsy?s deli-fresh Classic Reuben sandwich, because it could be contaminated with listeria.

The sandwiches contain sliced corned beef, one of the ready-to-eat deli meat products recalled by Maple Leaf. Only a small number of the suspect sandwiches were sold in a limited number of outlets in Ontario and no illnesses have been associated with the consumption of these sandwiches.




? (c) CanWest MediaWorks Publications Inc.
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kenmyfam

Supreme Mariner
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Aug 10, 2006
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14,386
Re: Moral Dilemma

I'm with JB on this. determine just what "clean" means. Daily cleaning items, weekly cleaning items, monthly cleaning items etc etc. Document what is agreed on and both sign it.
If the store ever gets busted for non conformance to health and hygene issues you just know that you will be the one thrown under the bus if the non compliance is in your area of responsibility !!
My guess is that your immediate supervisor won't sign it.
Do you have an actual "job description" ??
 

Summer Fun

Banned
Joined
Mar 2, 2002
Messages
2,251
Re: Moral Dilemma

Heres how us country boys would handle this......... :)

Hey boss i bought a sub and I can't eat it all ,

He eats it then I would tell him........ :D

I took a dump aka a poop and only washed one of my hands

Guess what one. :D
 

MTboatguy

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Messages
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Re: Moral Dilemma

Do this company have a written hand book that details job duties and responsibilities? Also do they have a written description of cleaning procedures for the butcher dept. If not, then understand if something happens, your probably going to end up being the one thrown under the bus.

I would ask the manager to write out the specifics of what your job of cleaning is, the way it is suppose to be done and the expectations of time frames. That way there is no misunderstanding. On the QT I would also call the State Health Dept and ask them to provide the guidelines for butcher shop health code.

I am not saying throw the book up to them, but just make sure you know what the guide lines are, that way if something does happen and you feel your being treated unfairly, or the shop gets in trouble, you have your rear end covered. If your having ethical concerns over the operation, then I would say it is probably time to start looking for another position, that does not cause an ethical dilemma for you..
 

Mike Robinson

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jun 29, 2005
Messages
752
Re: Moral Dilemma

Some very good advice here. Also if you have a union at work it might be wise to talk to your shop steward about this. Ask your boss if he has heard about "Listeriosis".
 

roscoe

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
21,669
Re: Moral Dilemma

I work in a food processing plant, and do sanitation. Every supervisor and teamleader tells us to get it done faster - every day.

But they get a lot madder if the USDA inspector finds something on his post clean inspection.

You must remove every part to properly clean and sanitize the hidden debris.

If possible, look for ways to clean and sanitize more efficiently, without sacrificing your standards.

If you can't please him, look for a different job, where your standards are met and expected. It will give you piece of mind.


Just curious: Is your facility inspected by USDA - DAILY ?

Are swabs taken on all equipment several times a week?
 

MTboatguy

Fleet Admiral
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Messages
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Re: Moral Dilemma

Bubba,

I agree, employees don't make the rules, but it is an employees obligation, when it comes to safety to question the methods, if it is a safely compromise.

In my profession, when I was working, if my employee's(my men and women soldiers) were always encouraged to let me know when there was a question of safety, people got killed when safety was in question when I was serving..

With as many problems as we have with food recalls and illness caused by lax food safety, then I would have to say it is pretty important. I agree, a subordinate, does not have the right to always question, but when it comes to a safety issue, I also think they have the obligation to get it clarified, not only by their boss, but the agency that makes the rules..food born illness in this country is often not taken seriously, and I am not in favor or more rules or more government, but we need to make sure our food is safe. This is an issue that could affect anyone of us.
 

PiratePast40

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Mar 21, 2009
Messages
1,734
Re: Moral Dilemma

Instead of talking about things in general, use your food handler certificate course materials and notes to point out specifics. You should have also seen the checklists used by the local authroity having jutisdiction. Those lists are normally published on the health department web site so you can use the checklist to show your supervisor exactly what you're talking about. People are usually more receptive to ideas if you are specific and also have a solution.
 

MTboatguy

Fleet Admiral
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Messages
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Re: Moral Dilemma

Do all states have a food handlers certificate program?
 

JB

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
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Mar 25, 2001
Messages
45,907
Re: Moral Dilemma

I agree that employees/subordinates do not make rules, but they have a right to demand clarification of expectations and in some cases documentation of those expectations. Even minimally competent leaders will comply and seek agreement on expectations.
 

Cofe

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Apr 23, 2009
Messages
1,883
Re: Moral Dilemma

The title of your post is "Moral Dilemma"

As I see it there are two sets of morals in this dilemma.
Yours and your employers.
Talk with your employer about what he expects of you. If you cannot live with the set expectations for your job function, then you will have to find a different job that you can function at. This is the exact reason I could never be a politician.:eek:
 
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