How to get better MPG when towing???

aborgman

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Mar 30, 2007
Messages
210
Re: How to get better MPG when towing???

To see how ridiculous the BMW car is:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,448648,00.html

"BMW's thermo-tank, specially designed to hold liquid hydrogen as well as regular gasoline, has the same diameter as the drum of a washing machine. It has a volume of 170 liters (45 gallons) and takes up half the trunk. But it can only hold eight kilograms (17.6 lbs) of the extremely light hydrogen fuel -- barely enough for a 200 kilometer (124 mile) trip. What's more, some of the tank's contents have to be released as they heat up and evaporate -- even the best insulation system can't keep temperatures down forever. After nine days, half the tank load has gone bad."

Like I said - it depends on what you want to consider "massive". I would call that large, but not massive - and it also provides enough mileage for about 90% of the automobile trips taken in the United States.

You also seem to want to ignore hydrogen fuel cells which can get the same amount of energy into a significantly smaller area - yet again increasing the volumetric energy density. They aren't feasible yet, but there is certainly a possibility they could surpass gasoline in volumetric energy density. After all - gasoline is just a hydrogen storage mechanism itself.

--
Aaron
 

External Combustion

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Aug 21, 2007
Messages
608
Re: How to get better MPG when towing???

Not just hydrogen, but carbon too. Forget the "carbon Footprint? CH14 through CH22 provides more carbon atoms to oxidize than hydrogen.

Both the hydrogen and carbon can be incompletely burned, though it is more prevalent for the carbon atoms.

Energy density / carring capacity requires a look not only at the volume but the weight requirements. The BMW is nothing to crow about with only 40 MPG for hydrogen and the fuel will not keep without severe evaporation.

For the same energy density/power plant density you could go back to the Leyland Steam truck with coal as a fuel. The Doble model E got 14 miles per gallon for any oil fuel, yet I think even it's alternative fuel use would be unacceptable. With over half of the BMW's hydrogen boiling off into nothingness if kept a week, you are approaching technology that is over fourty years old. My Renault R-10 goat fourty two miles per gallon and could haul as much as the BMW will on an average trip. I remember my friends Issetta got better milage.

What is the milage under towing conditions? That is what the readers are concerned with in this forum.

Our local city trucks and cars were on CNG for several years. It did not prove viable and they are now either gasolilne or diesel vehicles.

Fuel cell cars are a nice dream and I encourage the research to bring them to economical fruition, yet they are many years in the future as far as I can see. So are most alternatives to petroleum based fuels.
 

Campylobacter

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
503
Re: How to get better MPG when towing???

I am intrigued by this system, and I am usually a skeptic. And I follow all the laws of thermodynamics. Bear with me:

The HHO uses electrolysis to break H2O into H2 and O2. This is easily enough done, but as many people have pointed out it takes energy. Taking the second law of thermodynamics into account, burning all the H2 produces slightly less energy than it takes to make the H2, thus the problem with the system.

However, if the energy use to electrolyze the water comes from your alternator, this could be a net gain. Your alternator turns all the time, producing more electricity than needed to charge the battery, etc. Most of the time at least some of the electricity is wasted. Could it be that the HHO is just capturing (recycling really) wasted energy from the alternator?

I do doubt that the small amount of H2 produced this way would could have a significant affect on fuel efficiency (especially considering the tiny amount of H20 that gets electrolyzed, they were talking very small volumes).
 

External Combustion

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Aug 21, 2007
Messages
608
Re: How to get better MPG when towing???

Once again a car alternator does not produce more electricity than is used in operating the car.

If you spun an unregulated alternator at any normal speed and took out no current then the voltage would rise to the point it would self destruct. That is why you can change the regulator on a common car alternator and get 110 volts out of it. The regulator however limits the voltage to around 14 volts. If you draw no current out of the alternator then you will still have 14 volts.

Current times volts equals watts, which is power. No current draw, no power developed by the alternator, even if it spins all day long.

As has been deduced, the amount of hydrogen generated in the device at question is miniscule compared to the amount of fuel the gasoline represents.
 

SnappingTurtle

Lieutenant
Joined
May 4, 2008
Messages
1,251
Re: How to get better MPG when towing???

They are completely implausible - in the same vein as perpetual motion machines.

Not at all - you compress the hydrogen (or bind it in a metal matrix of some sort), and you're golden.

BMW already makes a 200+ HP hydrogen powered sedan, and Ford has tested a 6000lb, 770 HP, car at Bonneville Salt flats which broke 200 MPH.

--
Aaron

The BMW Hydrogen 7 is a dual-mode drive, 12-cylinder engine running on either hydrogen or conventional premium gasoline. There are two fuel storage tanks on board, a 19.5-gallon reservoir for gasoline that lasts for about 300 miles, and another tank that stores 17.6 lbs. of liquid hydrogen. On hydrogen alone the Hydrogen 7 can only travel 125 miles, and then switchs over to gasoline. BMW is only building 100 examples of the Hydrogen 7 for public relations purposes world wide. The sedan has no MSRP, and will be loaned out for weeks at a time to high visibility celebrities. The real cost per vehicle, goes into the 7 digit world (not counting R&D), and you would have to drive one into eternity to see any benefit of having one.

Ford beat BMW to the line with real production version by two years with E-450 hydrogen-fueled shuttle buses running in real world conditions. Not as with the BMW, driving “celebs” to the Oscars. They also have Focus fuel cell vehicles, the Mazda RX-8 Hydrogen RE, and the Super Chief, all being produced in numbers since 2006 close to that of the BMW.

About 15 years ago I drove around a test track in Germany with a 2 stroke Ford Fiesta that was also produced in rather large numbers and given out to be tested in the real world. The motor was 75% lighter, had less moving parts, cost less to produce, produced over double the horse power, used +-30% less fuel in the real world, and was cleaner burning, as the smallest engine available in the Fiesta at the time.

It was a blast to drive, a little screamer. Sounded like a “Bat out of Hell”.

What happened to it? The eco press screamed like mad, refusing to look at the real numbers, and compared it to the 40 year old technology used in the East German made 2-stroke Trabants that were all over Europe (after the fall of the wall) at the time. For Public Relation reasons the project was killed. I tried really hard to get one of the test cars but for obvious reasons, Ford said no.

There will be no one shot answer to the energy problems we are facing, there will be many, and the ones real people can afford, are the ones real people will buy.

Car manufactures produce most of these million dollar experiments for the headlines.

I hate to say it but this problem will never get better, as America is now facing new buyers in competition for the same energy we had all to ourselfs in the past.

With number of new auto owners exploding in Asia, India, Eastern Europe and South America, the prices are only going to go up. Because of the limited incomes in these regions, the real cost effective alternative methods of powering transportation, will come first to these markets, and rich America will continue to get the sexy celebrity driven million dollar BMW's.

There are many effective alternatives forms of energy from the past that could be implemented today but people have to want them and buy them.

VW, among all the others, has been building 3 liter per 100 kilometer gasoline Lupos in Germany for years, but know one wants/buys them. They suck to drive. They do make make for great green advertising spots though.

In the neighborhood were we live in Germany, there is one Smart and seven Hummers. Our neighborhood is not one of the rich and famous, it is the lower end of the German working class.

The new breed has to be affordable and fun. If it feels like you are being punished while driving a alternative feul vehicle, real people wont buy them.

“External Combustion” is right, there is no free ride, but there are some cheap ones.

Separate the Corporate PR, from the realities of today.

What can you do now? What 10's of thousands of people in Eastern Europe are doing & that is converting their diesels to run on used French Fry fat, given away by restaurants and filtered at home. But governments don't earn taxes on used fat, so they don't like used fat solutions. We need fuel, they need taxes. If they don't earn money on a new/old technology, we won't get it.

As I said before, it is the simple real world solutions that will prevail, but not in America, it will and is happening in the third world countries.

As far as E85 goes, ask Brazil, they are almost a “alcohol only” country now. VW has stopped all production of their gasoline powered engines there, only making/selling engines designed for locally produced Brazilian alcohol.

How have I personally reduced my gasoline consumption by 35%, while at the same time increasing my top speed by 30 kph (at redline, the gearing won't allow it to go faster), shortening my braking by 25%, and increasing my acceleration dramatically?

By reducing it's total weight from almost 750 kilograms, to 500 kilograms (not counting me). How much did this cost me? $0!

Want a cheap, uses less gas, towing solution? Make your towing vehicle, and the object you tow, go on a diet!
 

SnappingTurtle

Lieutenant
Joined
May 4, 2008
Messages
1,251
Re: How to get better MPG when towing???

Oh Yeah, something else.

My Oldsmobile in 1975 had a 455, and if I drove with a light foot (didn't do it very often) and the windows up, I could get 20+MPG.

It would also could drain the 50 gallon tank in less than 5mins. But lets not go there.

When I look at real gas millage on todays V8's, 33 years latter, I see we haven't made much progress.

What happened? The cars just get fatter & fatter, and the boats, bigger & bigger.
 

jeeperman

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Aug 2, 2001
Messages
1,513
Re: How to get better MPG when towing???

If I had lots of money I would build a high compression e85 only engine just to try it. Turbo or supercharging would be nice too:D
Lot's of e85 pumps around me.

They are doing this already at most drag strips around the country.
With 100% alcohol supercharged engines.
 

jeeperman

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Aug 2, 2001
Messages
1,513
Re: How to get better MPG when towing???

The only real way to take advantage of E85 is to bump the compression ratio, but automakers can't do that as their engines still have to run on regular.

Okay, but why not? Compression ratio is the difference in combustion chamber volme between BDC and TDC. So if you have variable valve timing, why could you not change the compression ratio by changing how long the exhaust valve stays open?
Close the exhaust valve sooner when running E85 than when running on gasoline?
 
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