Condener Keeps burning up?

wileecoyote

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I'm working on a 79 Grady White with the OMC Stringer 800 (200 Selectrim) We put a new set of points and condenser in it this spring, because it would not run. Had boat out 3 times and new condenser had burned up again (started with new one) Set points correct and runs great. Question is why it burned up so quick. We found the voltage regulator is bad, Charges 16V off idle. The question is why would this burn condenser and not the points?? We hope thats out only problem since we can't think of anything else that would cause it and this is a definite problem.
 

Boatist

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Re: Condener Keeps burning up?

Wileecoyote<br />Condenser are rated for voltage. If you exceed the voltage rateing of the condenser the dielectric will breakdown and destroy the condensor. Condenser normally rated at least twice the expected max voltage. If your have 16 volts RMS your may have over 120 volts peak. I assume your have fixed your alternator/voltage regulater. <br /><br />Be glad it was something cheap like the condenser not your GPS, Fish finder, Radio, or Radar. <br /><br />What was the voltage at 2000 rpms?
 

wileecoyote

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Re: Condener Keeps burning up?

Haven't fixed it yet but I was assuming that the higher voltage, plus spikes due to things such as variable loads (tilt motor) etc.. would cause the arcing across the points to finally burn up the condenser. A friend swore that the points would burn first and I told him as long as the points don't weld together, it wouldn't take much more than 15V to fry a condenser. At 2000RPM is where I get the 16+ V. Thanks Boatist, just looking for more opinions. It's my friends boat and I'm trying to get him straight because it's nickel and diming him right now. Told him "get used to it!" HEHE
 

Don S

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Re: Condener Keeps burning up?

You might want to put a digital volt meter on the battery while running and see if it is actually getting 16Volts. If it is, he is going to boil all the water out of the batteries and ruin them also. Alternators have regulators built in them to prevent the voltage from going over 14.8 volts.<br />Get the alternator fixed and he may find the condenser stops burning up also.
 

KaGee

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Re: Condener Keeps burning up?

Originally posted by Don S:<br /> You might want to put a digital volt meter on the battery while running...
This sounds identical to a post on another forum I frequent. It's the same thing I said over there. <br /><br />A Digital Volt/Ohm Meter should be in everyone's toolbox who work on there own craft. Too many opportunities for the dash meter to be wrong. Plenty of opportunities to use it elsewhere on the boat.<br /> :cool:
 

cc lancer

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Re: Condener Keeps burning up?

My hobby is restoring pinball and video games, what Boatist said is 100% correct. Condensors and capacitors can actually explode if the voltage get to high.<br />The condenser will continue to fail until the voltage is brought down to what Don stated.
 

steve n carol

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Re: Condener Keeps burning up?

Please do tell, The voltage to the (typical) condenser comes in form where? I am thinking, from a resistor (wire)? Does this uasally pass through to the contact points after a charge is stored, (in the condenser), or through the points then to the condenser? <br /><br /> In all my years as a mechanic, (mostly breaker point ignition), I have seen points fry, turn colors, even melt, but never had the opportunity to see what happens when a condenser is charged too high. In fact upon doing a tune up, if the OLD points did not show any pitting or burning, we would NOT change out the condenser. Even wear on the breaker points shows that the condenser was issuing the correct outout. <br /> If anyone knows the answers to my questions, PLEASE answer send the answer, thanks...sl<br /> Truly, I don't understand electrical things real well....but I do have a digital volt/ohm meter! (I only know how to use 3 settings, ha ha)
 

KaGee

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Re: Condener Keeps burning up?

Originally posted by steve n carol:<br /> Please do tell, The voltage to the (typical) condenser comes in form where? I am thinking, from a resistor (wire)?
The voltage on the capacitor comes via the coil. If the coil has a resistor wire (as most do), then there is about 9 volts. The points complete the circuit when closed causing the coil to charge. The capacitor buffers the spark on the points, keeping them from burning up prematurly as well as filtering the DC power line reducing ignition noise in radios and other marine electronics.<br /><br />
<br /> In all my years as a mechanic, (mostly breaker point ignition), I have seen points fry, turn colors, even melt, but never had the opportunity to see what happens when a condenser is charged too high. In fact upon doing a tune up, if the OLD points did not show any pitting or burning, we would NOT change out the condenser.
Me either. I don't know really what this guy's problem is. I would think that the capacitor would at least be rated at 25 volts.<br /><br />
<br />...but I do have a digital volt/ohm meter! (I only know how to use 3 settings, ha ha)
Then you are dangerous man! Watchout! :D
 

steve n carol

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Re: Condener Keeps burning up?

So, do you suppose that the 2 wires on the coil could be switched? And would that be known as 'reverse polarity'?...sl
 

steve n carol

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Re: Condener Keeps burning up?

At times I have seen a condenser/capaciter attached outside the ignition coil. I assume that these are used to supress static and such. What terminal shoul these be attached to?...sl
 

steve n carol

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Re: Condener Keeps burning up?

Mr coyote,<br />Another thought, kinda like a second opinion. Think for a second and give you my opinion.<br />Is it a possibility that the tower on your coil is cracked, or just corroded, allowing a short to the post that goes to the lead that attaches the distributer? thereby allowing 17,000 volts to go through the condenser?..sl
 

tommays

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Re: Condener Keeps burning up?

the condenser is on points to for arc suppression your points would last about 2 minutes without one they would pit through the silver and be toast ASAP<br /><br />tommays
 

wileecoyote

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Re: Condener Keeps burning up?

OK clearing things up. I have used a DVOM on this boat and have proven that 16.7V is reaching battery at 1000 RPM. Due to resistor wire only 12.3 is reaching ign. system(should be in 7-9 range I would think). As previously stated the condenser stores the excess energy when the points break to allow for a clean break and a good coil discharge, and to keep points from arching and frying, then returns back to coil when points close again, and so on. The coil is not cracked, and I don't think the boat would have ever started at all had that been the case. The question for you old timers out there is if anyone has heard the rule of thumb that points will burn before a condenser? I'm trying to explain why I believe we have found the problem and was looking for some specific data on the tolerances of basic breaker points condensers?
 

KaGee

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Re: Condener Keeps burning up?

Originally posted by steve n carol:<br /> So, do you suppose that the 2 wires on the coil could be switched? And would that be known as 'reverse polarity'?...sl
The "coil" as they call it, is really a transformer... and although some have polarity marks on the can, that is mostly for reference as transformers have no "polarity". Just a primary and a secondary side. There is no way to get those reversed as the secondary is what goes to the distributor cap.
 

KaGee

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Re: Condener Keeps burning up?

Wilee... 16.7 is definetly too much voltage. You will fry the battery! (and potentially any other gadget attached that is voltage sensitive)Fix that problem first. <br /><br />Condensor failure happens, but is rare. <br />It's probable that your problems are related, but possibly not. <br /><br />Make sure that there are no wires on the coil post (that the distributor wire is attached to)that have voltage. You will have to remove those wires first before checking for voltage. The other coil post should have around 9 volts with ignition on.
 

KaGee

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Re: Condener Keeps burning up?

Originally posted by steve n carol:<br /> At times I have seen a condenser/capaciter attached outside the ignition coil. I assume that these are used to supress static and such. What terminal shoul these be attached to?...sl
It just adds more capacitance to the circuit for DC filtering purposes. IMO, It really would not matter, as long as the metal can (negative side) was grounded and insulated from touching either post. Would probably filter better if the wire was attached to the post with the distributor wire.
 

cc lancer

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Re: Condener Keeps burning up?

The conventional (Kettering) spark ignition system in automotive applications uses a coil which performs the dual functions of energy storage and voltage step up. It is typically about a 100:1 turns ratio. DC power is applied, producing a current of about 5 Amps through the 8 mH primary inductance, storing about 100 mJoule of energy. When the current is interrupted the points opening, (The points are a set of contacts mechanically driven by a multilobed cam synchronized to the engine), the voltage rises (L di/dt) to around 300-400 volts, which is stepped up to around 30-40 kV (open circuit) in the secondary. <br />The di/dt is limited to around 50 amps/millisecond by a capacitor (called a condensor, for historical reasons) across the set of points. If this capacitor isn't there, the rapid voltage rise as the points open causes an arc across the points, which absorbs some of the energy, and more important greatly reduces the di/dt, reducing the output voltage. (The points contacts also typically melt). Typical capacitances are around a microfarad ( i.e. it stores about the same amount of energy as the coil inductance does).<br />In typical use the coil is connected in series with a ballast resistor of a few ohms to reduce the voltage, which in turn reduces the current through the coil so it doesn't burn up. The ballast resistor isn't used during cranking (when the battery voltage is usually reduced to around 6-8 volts). A typical DC coil resistance would be around an ohm, and at 12 Volts, the DC current would be 12Amps, dissipating more than a 100 watts.<br />Source: Delco Remy......GM<br /><br />The condensor/capacitor does one and only one thing in an electrical circuit, it stores energy [electricity], this energy is released by electrical components, or a mechanical device [points]. Points are nothing more than a mechanical "switch" to release energy to the spark plugs. Regardless of its use, if the input voltage and amperage for which it was designed is exceeded it will fail. It cannot, will not, never will control electrical spikes in a circuit, [static]. A ballast resistor is not used on a boat for two reasons, they get hot, and with an extreme failure the potting material breaks away and there is a red hot wire, and possibly a spark, therefore the resistant wire is used in the circuit. People get overly concerned about voltage....amperage is what will kill you.<br />When the voltage regulator failed not only did the voltage go up to 16.7 volts the amperage also went up, the condensor failed in the circuit.
 

KaGee

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Re: Condener Keeps burning up?

It cannot, will not, never will control electrical spikes in a circuit, [static].
Wrong.... they are used for filtering all the time. That is initially what capacitors were designed for. You will even see them sometimes on electrical devices like wiper motors... to reduce radio interference.<br /><br />
<br />A ballast resistor is not used on a boat for two reasons...
Hmmmm.... I have one, true it's not a block type, it's a resistive wire. Older boats did have the resistor blocks. Newer ones don't because they use electronic ignitions.
 

cc lancer

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Re: Condener Keeps burning up?

Thank you KaGee;<br />It appears that you know more about electronics than my college professors.<br />Find me any where on the web that states that a filtering <br />condensor/capacitor was used on a 1979 engine ignition circuit and you have my total apology.<br /><br />Next a ballast resistor is a ceramic device, not a resistive wire.<br /><br />I have 26 boats on my yard right now, not a single one has a ballast resistor in the ignition circuit.<br /><br />Fact is this thread has been beat to death because of a voltage regulator.
 

tommays

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Re: Condener Keeps burning up?

If this capacitor isn't there, the rapid voltage rise as the points open causes an arc across the points, which absorbs some of the energy, and more important greatly reduces the di/dt, reducing the output voltage. (The points contacts also typically melt). <br /><br />hey cc not to start a fight but did you read the GM info you put in your post about controling point arc<br /><br />tommays
 
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