Bio fuel not the answer!

Bob_VT

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Re: Bio fuel not the answer!

Maybe they were not filtering it enough before they used it......???

I do know since McD's changed to non trans fat oil that the process get harder to make it.
 

JB

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Re: Bio fuel not the answer!

There are lots of ways to make poor biodiesel fuel, but any vehicle that has been running petrodiesel is going to need petrodiesel residues dissolved and then filtered out or it will need the entire system cleansed before the switch to biodiesel. After some time the tank and lines will be clean. Then there will be no filtering problem.

Poor biodiesel (methanol, water, hydroxides and glycerin not completely removed) will always get poor mileage compared to high quality petrodiesel. Removing all of that stuff reduces the volume and increases the price. . .'nuff said?

Commercially made biodiesel made from new veggie oil is going to be expensive and drive up the price of the source commodities that have other markets. Same as with ethanol driving up the price of everything in the food market. It doesn't seem to me to be a viable alternative. Maybe if they can develop a veggie oil recycling infrastructure it can work on a small scale.

Biodiesel made from sources not currently produced commercially makes more sense. There are quite a few plants not currently commercially cultivated that produce oil that can be made into good biodiesel. The question is where the heck are they gonna grow enough to replace petrodiesel?? I don't think there is that much land available.
 

tomatolord

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Re: Bio fuel not the answer!

Algae...water based plants

There are plans to replace the CO2 scrubbers at plants with algae tubes.

The algae absorbs the co2 and the co2 helps the algae bloom algae then gets squeezed for the oil. Residue of the algae is then buried...

solves quite a few problems...

http://www.oilgae.com/

Tomatolord
 

CN Spots

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Re: Bio fuel not the answer!

I've read about a wild grass growing in Kansas that's an excellent source for biofuel. PLant that stuff in the median and sides of interstates. They'd be doing it now if they could figure out how to subsidize weed farming.

Brazil seemed to have a better method of production. They had small refineries in the larger sugarbeet fields that did some of the work prior to shipping the rest off for further refining. The waste was recycled back into the fields.
 

kenimpzoom

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Re: Bio fuel not the answer!

Bio fuel only makes sense when it uses something worthless to make it AND the only fuel that is used to grow/process/deliver it is Biofuel itself.

Ken
 

Nos4r2

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Re: Bio fuel not the answer!

Bio fuel only makes sense when it uses something worthless to make it AND the only fuel that is used to grow/process/deliver it is Biofuel itself.

Ken
Yes.

The ONLY way biofuel makes sense is if it's made from recycled veg oil.
 

SnappingTurtle

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Re: Bio fuel not the answer!

Germany is a self proclaimed “BioFuel Capital” of the world, and has tax subsidized it for the last 15+ years.

They just noticed today that it makes little to no sense environmentally, someone made a major mistake in the government when doing the math all those years ago, and no one ever rechecked it. They said there will have to be a total “rethink” of all the existing programs today, whatever this means.

It seems only those directly receiving the subsidizing, profited in any form.

Funny it is one of the things that they have always said makes them so great in comparison to America, and it turns out it was all just a political charade.

I say give me good old French fry fat power, but they don't like that because people don't pay taxes on it.
 

JB

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Re: Bio fuel not the answer!

"Biofuel" is not a good term to use. It mixes ethanol and biodiesel. They are poor answers to energy needs for different reasons.

The demand for ethanol has driven up the price of corn, which in turn drives up the cost of many food products (along with the cost of transporting the food with petrodiesel). There is not enough land to grow enough corn (fertilized and cultivated with petroleum derivatives) to meet food chain demands and still make enough ethanol to meet transportation demands if it is to replace gasoline in vehicles. Brazil is getting away with it because it has the climate and space to grow a bazillion acres of sugarcane and has only a fraction of the fuel need of the US.

Biodiesel made from virgin veggie oil screws up the food infrastructure in the same way for many of the same reasons. Biodiesel made on a minute scale from recycled veggie oil, if made correctly, makes sense for the individual making and using it, but it can't be expanded to a viable commercial scale because there simply isn't enough used veggie oil to supply it. Germany has discovered that it is using more energy and generating more CO2 to make biodiesel than it is "saving" by doing so.

It seems to me that energy extracted from inexhaustible sources like gravity (hydro), wind, solar radiation, geothermal heat, tidal flow and ocean waves offer the least environmental disruption and destruction of known sources.

I would include nuclear fission in that list if it didn't create a monumental waste disposal problem.

Nuclear fusion is yet to be controlled, but offers a sort of pie in the sky (pie in the sky, get it? The sun) energy source.

So far, we know how to extract energy from all of those sources and make electricity. We still need to find how to store that electricity in large amounts in small, lightweight "containers".

Electricity (and maybe hydrogen electrolysis) is the future replacement for crude oil based fuels.
 
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Re: Bio fuel not the answer!

I saw where it can be very cheap to make your own distilled alcohol at home to run in your car. The cost is less than 50 cents a gallon. You use your own garbage and things like old donuts etc for the mash and a home system can produce 40 to 50 gallons a day. Simple to make but we wont hear too much about this in the mainstream news I bet.
 

SnappingTurtle

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Re: Bio fuel not the answer!

"Biofuel" is not a good term to use. It mixes ethanol and biodiesel. They are poor answers to energy needs for different reasons.

The demand for ethanol has driven up the price of corn, which in turn drives up the cost of many food products (along with the cost of transporting the food with petrodiesel). There is not enough land to grow enough corn (fertilized and cultivated with petroleum derivatives) to meet food chain demands and still make enough ethanol to meet transportation demands if it is to replace gasoline in vehicles. Brazil is getting away with it because it has the climate and space to grow a bazillion acres of sugarcane and has only a fraction of the fuel need of the US.

Biodiesel made from virgin veggie oil screws up the food infrastructure in the same way for many of the same reasons. Biodiesel made on a minute scale from recycled veggie oil, if made correctly, makes sense for the individual making and using it, but it can't be expanded to a viable commercial scale because there simply isn't enough used veggie oil to supply it. Germany has discovered that it is using more energy and generating more CO2 to make biodiesel than it is "saving" by doing so.

It seems to me that energy extracted from inexhaustible sources like gravity (hydro), wind, solar radiation, geothermal heat, tidal flow and ocean waves offer the least environmental disruption and destruction of known sources.

I would include nuclear fission in that list if it didn't create a monumental waste disposal problem.

Nuclear fusion is yet to be controlled, but offers a sort of pie in the sky (pie in the sky, get it? The sun) energy source.

So far, we know how to extract energy from all of those sources and make electricity. We still need to find how to store that electricity in large amounts in small, lightweight "containers".

Electricity (and maybe hydrogen electrolysis) is the future replacement for crude oil based fuels.

Here the production of biodiesel out of Rapeseed oil, as you said, has cost more energy and generates more CO2 to make, than it is "saving" by doing so.

It is also so highly subsidized that farmers are producing it instead of food crops, although more is produced than can be sold, due to the higher cost, even with the artificial price limits and tax breaks for those using it.

If you drive the county side here you would think it is the only crop still grown in Germany.

Rapeseed is an excellent source for producing biodiesel, as far as grown & cultivated oil sources are concerned when compared to alternatives such as soybean. But with the prices being so high for it, and the economy so bad, normal people just can't afford it.

There comes a point where they just say "bio" for the family, or “bio” for the car. Thank you, we'll feed the family.

They protest wind energy as eye & noise pollution. My former partner was half owner of several large wind parks (the largest in the State where we live) and they got regular death threats from those living near them.

Sun is a problem here, just not enough of it to commercially justify solar on a large scale. On small scale projects you would have to wait decades for it to break even with the technology available. Germany has a city (I forget the name) that promised to go solar decades ago, and after all this time can only claim 3% percent energy comes from solar.

They refuse to use the rivers here for Hydro electric power generation, and the projects on the coast with tidal powers as a source have received court battles tying up all hope of this every being investigated on a large scale.

As the rest of Europe is planning new Nuclear plants, like it or not, Germany is still trying to completely phase them out.

Geothermal sources don't exist here.

That leaves Germany with it's only local natural source of energy, coal. They are now considering reopening old long ago closed mines. We live near one such coal fired electric plant and they don't make for pleasent neighbors, even with all the newest German technology installed. We have a constant supply of black sticky dust stuff on everything.

Germans, like so many of us, tend to be of the "renewable resources for everybody else", but "not for me", and "not in my back yard".
 

CN Spots

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Re: Bio fuel not the answer!

A coworker of mine investigated the home brewed stuff for a while... greasecar.com offered a soloution that did not involve refining, only filtering the old grease. There were tricks to using it of course: keeping it at an optimal temperature and having to flush out your fuel lines with diesel prior to shut down etc. etc. THey offered a device that could do this automatically, like on a turbo. He was giving it serious consideration until the local news did a story on it. An interesting thing began happening... every one of the grease vats in this area have a sign on them now that reads somethin like "PROPERTY OF BIG OIL. REMOVAL OF CONTENTS FROM THIS CONTAINER PROHIBITED BY LAW, BLAH BLAH BLAH." They put contracts on every one they could get their hands on! That's low-down!:mad:

By the way, it's not tax free. The Feds say you still have to pay taxes even if you make your own fuel. The last time I checked it was like 35 cents per gallon in MS. Dunno how they'd enforce this though.;)
 

SnappingTurtle

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Re: Bio fuel not the answer!

A coworker of mine investigated the home brewed stuff for a while... greasecar.com offered a soloution that did not involve refining, only filtering the old grease. There were tricks to using it of course: keeping it at an optimal temperature and having to flush out your fuel lines with diesel prior to shut down etc. etc. THey offered a device that could do this automatically, like on a turbo. He was giving it serious consideration until the local news did a story on it. An interesting thing began happening... every one of the grease vats in this area have a sign on them now that reads somethin like "PROPERTY OF BIG OIL. REMOVAL OF CONTENTS FROM THIS CONTAINER PROHIBITED BY LAW, BLAH BLAH BLAH." They put contracts on every one they could get their hands on! That's low-down!:mad:

By the way, it's not tax free. The Feds say you still have to pay taxes even if you make your own fuel. The last time I checked it was like 35 cents per gallon in MS. Dunno how they'd enforce this though.;)

It takes two to make a contract, the restaurants are just as much to blame.

Here the Cars (Private not Commercial) that are running the home filtered stuff don't have to pay taxes on the fried fuel.

It is really the only alternative to all the other types of conversions. The other systems all cost so much that it just doesn't make economic sense for most people.

The converted diesels all still have their original systems, and it is used for cold starts, till the motor is warm, and then switched while driving, and then switched back to diesel to clean the lines before shutting down.

Unlike America where restaurants are paid for the used grease, here, in Germany they must pay for it to be hauled away for recycling. The Germans are also very anti-big-oil, they are ready for anything that gives them a little independence from “Father State” and it's cozy deals with, in their case “The Russian Oil” giants. It was the American & British oil companies they used to hate & have to deal with, but the last political party signed them into long term deals with the competition, Putin & Gazprom.
 

CN Spots

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Re: Bio fuel not the answer!

"It takes two to make a contract, the restaurants are just as much to blame."

Agreed, to a point... they (the restaurant) used to have to pay to have it removed but now somebody is offering to pay them to remove it? That a no-brainer for the owner. I don't blame them for doing it. My gripe was towards a major oil co. whose used to pulling millions of gallons of oil out of the ground suddenly focusing on a 200 gallon vat of french fry grease. I have no problem with them making a profit, far from it, and if they were struggling and looking at every avenue to make a dime for survival, ok, but to me this looks like a "nip it in the bud" approach to squashing an atom sized, niche competitor just to make sure it doesn't crawl too far out from under their umbrella. It's like they have a livewell full of crappie and decided to start eating out of the minnow bucket.

Putin & Gazprom... -sounds like a law firm.:D
 

SnappingTurtle

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Re: Bio fuel not the answer!

"It takes two to make a contract, the restaurants are just as much to blame."

Agreed, to a point... they (the restaurant) used to have to pay to have it removed but now somebody is offering to pay them to remove it? That a no-brainer for the owner. I don't blame them for doing it. My gripe was towards a major oil co. whose used to pulling millions of gallons of oil out of the ground suddenly focusing on a 200 gallon vat of french fry grease. I have no problem with them making a profit, far from it, and if they were struggling and looking at every avenue to make a dime for survival, ok, but to me this looks like a "nip it in the bud" approach to squashing an atom sized, niche competitor just to make sure it doesn't crawl too far out from under their umbrella. It's like they have a livewell full of crappie and decided to start eating out of the minnow bucket.

Putin & Gazprom... -sounds like a law firm.:D

I agree to agree on all your points. :D

The big western oil companies are investing heavily (at least compared to the past) in all forms of alternative energy in an attempt to corner what ever market develops. If we change our sources, they want their share of that pie, what ever the flavor my be. The worlds Governments will also be there long before us, with their hand sticking out in our direction, waiting with new Taxation concepts.

While I don't trust "Big Oil", if I have to choose, I choose our "Big Oil" over the Russian based "Big Oil" companies anyday.
 
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