71 Johnson 50 odd starting

[Mad Adder]

Hello, my name is Tony. This is my first post here.
I just purchased a 1980 MFG Gypsy with a 1971 50 hp Johnsom motor. As the story goes, it started hard every year, the owner walked away disgusted, but then returned and it would start. After that, it ran all summer. It would not start for him when I bought it and it had brand new plugs.
I bought a brand new battery and that got me nothing. I took the "flywheel" off and sanded the inside and then sprayed it with Electro-motive cleaner. I also took a brash brush and battery cleaner to the electric pick-ups that are inside the "flywheel" part. Again, it would turn over like crazy, but not start.
I then got out the test light. With the key on, I had power to the soleniod. With the key in the start position, I had power to the two large wires and also the lower of the small wires (white I think), but no start. I touched the test light to the top (I think) orange coil wire and had nothing. I then checked the wire opposite it with the test light... "POP"....engine fires off and whirls to life. At this point, I did not have the water on it, so I shut the key off, but it kept running. I quickly pulled the gas line off to stop it.
I grabbed the mouse ears and put the garden hose to it. With the water to the engine, I tried to start it with the key again and this time it fired right up. It stayed running, but seemed to be on a hi-idle ( maybe not, this is my first boat). I shut off the key and it did not stop. If I remember, I tried the "kill switch" toggle and it did nothing. Again, and I hate this, I pulled the gas line.
Once the engine stopped, I tried restarting it with the "kill switch" up and down. In both positions, the starter engaged. The switch runs to the Black/Yellow wire on some box next to the solenoid. The white wire below it is the one I jumped (grounded out) that got it started. The other side of the toggle goes to a mess of wires under the dash.
Under the toggle for the choke are two cut wires, one gray one black.
I have built a ten second 86 Mustang GT along with other car projects, but this is my first boat engine.
I want to get a handle on what I am doing before I break something that is really maybe just an easy fix.

 

[Mad Adder]

Re: 71 Johnson 50 odd starting

 

[Mad Adder]

Re: 71 Johnson 50 odd starting

Can you use a car timing light on an outboard engine? There is a zip-tie that goes from one adjusting screw to the other under the intake cover. Why would that be there? Loose adjustments?

 

[Daviet]

Re: 71 Johnson 50 odd starting

I am confused by some of your statements. Do you have a seperate switch on the dash to kill the engine? The engine will crank over but will not fire off and run, correct?
Yes, you can use an automotive timing light.
Have you checked the engine for spark when it will not start?
The black and yellow wire that is cut is the kill wire and should be connected to the key switch.
Normally a white wire is used on the neutral saftey circut.

 

[Mad Adder]

Re: 71 Johnson 50 odd starting

I am confused by some of your statements. Do you have a seperate switch on the dash to kill the engine? Yes, I was told there was a kill switch on the dash. I plan to replace it and make sure the switch is good to start with. The engine will crank over but will not fire off and run, correct? I have found that the engine does run now, but will not shut off with the key or kill switch.
Yes, you can use an automotive timing light. Ok, thanks.
Have you checked the engine for spark when it will not start?
The black and yellow wire that is cut is the kill wire and should be connected to the key switch.
Normally a white wire is used on the neutral saftey circut.

At the throttle control, there are two wires that are cut. Grey and Black in the picture. Would these be the keyed kill switch? Could this be why the black and yellow would be cut?

 

[Daviet]

Re: 71 Johnson 50 odd starting

Look at the two blue connectors, the wires from both of them are black with a yellow tracer, that is the kill wire. For some reason someone must have wanted to mount a seperate kill switch on the dash (???) and tried to splice it into the kill wire. Connect the two black/yellow wires togeather and you should be able to kill the engine with the ignition switch.
Usually a gray wire is for the tach and a black wire is a ground.

 

[Mad Adder]

Re: 71 Johnson 50 odd starting

Ok Daviet, I kinda figured that was the case with the blue connectors and the black and yellow wires. The boat is a 1980 MFG GYpsy, but the engine is a 71 Johnson 50. Will the Electro-drive work with the engine and are the black and gray wires that are cut part of the "keyed" shut off.

I would love it if I could get it all wired up correctly.

My neighbor has a 70's Glastron with an 85 hp Johnson. He said the "high idle" I had was becasue it was still up in start and I did not put it down in run.

 

[Daviet]

Re: 71 Johnson 50 odd starting

The black and gray wires shouldn't have anything to do with shutting down.
I don't quite understand "will the Electro-drive work with the engine" statement.
You lower unit is controlled by electric solenoids in the lower unit and you must run the proper oil in the lower unit for it to shift properly.

 

[Mad Adder]

Re: 71 Johnson 50 odd starting

Daviet, do you have any clue what the black and gray wires at the controler are for?
I meant, will the control wire work with the engine or did someone wire the kill because it will not match?
I did not mean as a gear selector to the lower unit.

Thanks for helping out a new boater. I am trying to understand how it all works electric-wise.

 

[TruckDrivingFool]

Re: 71 Johnson 50 odd starting

Looked in my manual only black wires it shows out of the controller are grounds. Grey in the harness should be tach not sure whether it would be connected to any thing in the control box or just dead ended. All that said mine didn't have the grey for the tach so I had to run one.

I will say I've noticed on my old Johnsons sometimes the purple has faded to a grey looking color. So it might be helpful to try and trace them.

 

[Mad Adder]

Re: 71 Johnson 50 odd starting

Tonight, I disconnected the Micky Mouse Kill switch that was added by a previous owner.
I then hooked the two ends of the black/yellow wire back togather. The thin black wire from the kill toggle was left unhooked.

I dropped the engine into a plastic trash can and filled it with water.

I primed the engine and turned the key. The starter turned the flywheel a few times and stopped. Then the starter engaged and stopped. This happened a few times. Nothing like the strong turn over I had before. I thought maybe the can had something to do with it, so I emptied it and put the muffs on the engine. After that, the starter would not kick in. I turned on the lights to check my electrical connection at the battery. Lights did not come on, so I took a brass brush to all the battery wires. Now with power going to the lights, the starter still will not move. I put the wires back as they were and still did not get the starter to engage. I got out my test light and had power to the large terminal (hot side of battery) on the soleniod. With the key in the start position, I now had power to the white line (small terminal) but not the other large terminal (which would be going to the starter motor).

Could it possibly be the Power Pack that is bad? The one with seven wires and houses the black/yellow wire for the keyed kill? Do they go bad?

 

[Mad Adder]

Update

Update

I ordered a service manual and an owner's manual. Looking through the service manual, I decided to pull the Power Pack II and bench test it. I have a Craftman multi-meter and used the 200 setting for low ohms and the 2K setting for high ohms. Step one (leads #1 and #4) tested ok, but Step two (leads #1 and #5) tested faulty, both high at 1. The other tests were all ok except step five (which again involved lead #5, black/yellow wire).
I guess it is time to order a Power Pack II.

Correct?

 

[Daviet]

Re: Update

Re: Update

A defective power pack will not stop the engine from turning over, it will cause a loss of spark, but the engine will still turn over.
Do you have battery voltage to one of the large posts on the solenoid? The other large post has a cable that goes to the starter.
There are two small posts on the solenoid, one of them goes to the ground circut, usually a white wire, and the other comes from the ignition switch. When you turn the key to start check the power to the solenoid and if you have voltage on the small post, if so jumper the other post to ground. If the starter turns over you have a problem on the ground side of the starter solenoid.

 

[Mad Adder]

Re: Update

Re: Update

I think the way it was acting the last time I tried to start it was due to a low battery. If it does not start with a new Power Pack, then I will look at the solenoid. The kill switch was wired into #5 on the power Pack, so I am guessing it went bad. Bench testing agrees.

 

[Mad Adder]

Re: Update

Re: Update

Put in a new Power Pack II with Black/Yellow hooked up like factory. It did not fix it.
The starter engaged, but did not whirl the motor over. I hooked up the battery charger and sprayed WD-40 on the starter shaft. With the charger on 50 amp start, I was able to get the starter to spin the motor over good and fast, but it did not fire over.
I am going to read up on the Sensor coil. I am pretty sure that when I got it running before, it was because I grounded out the white sensor wire.

 

[Mad Adder]

Re: Update

Re: Update

I took the leads off #6 and #7 on the power pack to check the sensor per my new trouble shooting book. On low ohms, it should read 15 (+ or - 5). My digital Craftman multimeter still read 1. the whole time even when I changed leads. It was on my lowest setting (200). Am I to understand the sensor is bad?

Any ideas?