140 hp mercruiser starting issues, troubleshooting performed. Lost!

[Motodox]

Ok jaa241 I have the 1 not the 2. Because my module is black not red I believe the module that is red is the II.

So could you tell me about the problem you were haveing and if you had spark etc

 

[AgnotGt]

With the air breather off I can pump the throttle and visually see two streams of fuel dumping into carb.

Plugs even pull out and smell of fuel and are wet after several attempts to start.

If the plugs are wet you likely fouled the plugs. Their cheap so replace those also. The cyl's have plenty of fuel so don't keep pumping throttle for now.

You asked if you needed to run the muff's while cranking. With all the cranking you are doing I wouldn't risk it.... Maybe not constant but better to keep that impeller from running dry.

.

 

[ibrw1]

Did you check the voltage on the coil when the key is in starter running mode? Any gas in the intake will allow the engine to run. A table spoon of gas dumped down the carburetor will run an engine. Power from battery goes direct when starter is running, otherwise through a resistor. (Normally) some engines are different.

 

[Motodox]

Did you check the voltage on the coil when the key is in starter running mode? Any gas in the intake will allow the engine to run. A table spoon of gas dumped down the carburetor will run an engine. Power from battery goes direct when starter is running, otherwise through a resistor. (Normally) some engines are different.

I checked with key on its 8v. I haven't checked with key turning starting. Are you saying I should? If so if it comes back lower then what it should be, does that mean the wire from solenoid to coil is bad or the purple resistance wire is bad

 

[Rick Stephens]

The procedure I did to check timing is I got the #1 cylinder on tdc on compression stroke. On the bell crank the notch was pointing right at 0 and I pulled the cap and it's pointing right towards #1 spark plug wire terminal.

That's the correct way to check it right?

That's a very rough check that you are in ballpark. At best that will tell you within maybe 20 degrees.

Proper way is when cranking use your timing light. I don't know the Pertronix unit, sounds like that system just replaces the points with a pickup. If so, the at idle timing setting will be 6? BTDC, same as the conventional point system. Even though not running you should be able to use your timing light to check that timing is spot on instead of roughin it in by eye. Use chalk or soapstone to mark the 6? BTDC and crank enough to see if the timing is on target.

 

[jaa241]

[h=2]Based on everything you have done to diagnosis the issue, I would have to be leaning to the electronic ignition module being the issue as Rick Stephens also said. It is most likely in the realm of the coil or module.

my issue: (somewhat similar)
I have a merc 140 in which my boat was converted to a pertronix 1 unit. After installing it and setting it up. I was having start up issue. It would basically take me 15 minutes to warm up the engine to be able pull it off trailer. Basically it was stalling every time in gear, but once warm ran great. Then it started to stop running when on water and did start but many time had issues starting again.(and yes everything is set up). So I came on here and every one gave suggestion. So I had a fuel pump replaced, added a ballast resistor, cleaned carb multiple times and actually rebuilt it twice. I also replaced spark wires and plugs. Pretty much everything on my engine was new now.

So after busting my brain and continuing the process of narrowing it down and reading articles, I lead me to the pertronix 1. What I found out was, that at some point I left the key turned on without the engine run. This will add excessive power which heats up the unit and can make it work incorrectly over multiple times. I then called up pertronix and had some discussion with their tech guys, and mentioned about the colored spark and such and to check voltage and what not. After telling them that spark was weak, they said it could be the coil. I said listen, I just replaced the coil with a MSD epoxy coil. Epoxy coils hold up better with heat and vibrations than oil. Then I mentioned about pertronix 2. I said what the difference and why would someone goes with that. The tech finally mentioned that well the pertronix 1 was original designed for automotive engines, which use ranges of rpms due to shifting and don?t need to have adjusted dwell. People started putting them on marine engines and were having issues due to the load of the water on the engine when in gear. So they updated the module in the pertronix and number 2. What the pertronix unit 2 has:[/h] [h=2]Features: (http://pertronix.com/prod/ig/ignitor2/default.aspx)[/h] Ignitor II systems develop up to 4 times more energy between 3000 and 5000 RPM than standard ignition systems. High RPM performance is improved when used with the Flame-Thrower II super low resistance (0.6 ohms) 45,000 volt coil.

• Adaptive dwell maintains peak energy throughout the entire RPM range, reducing misfires while improving engine performance.
• Develops on average 4 times more available energy between 3000 and 5000 RPM, and 2 times more available plug voltage.
• Peak current level is reached just prior to spark for maximum energy without the heat build-up, increasing coil and module life.
• Adjusts spark timing at higher RPMs to compensate for the inherent electronic delay.
• Senses startup and develops more energy for quicker, easier starting. Built in reverse polarity and over current protection shuts down the system, preventing component damage.

All of these features are critical and the tech finally explains that marine engines should really only use pertronix 2 and 3. Pertronix 3 is out he said but not really effective on v4 engines. He said definitely get pertonix 2.
Low and behold, I installed it, set everything up and its like night and day. It runs like a car engine. I only have to prime the engine when starting the boat up the first time for that day. Every time after that during the day, it starts like a car. I do not prime it or anything, I just turn the key and it runs.
If you look at other posting under pertronix, other people had pertronix 1 and eventually switched to pertronix 2, and all their issues of spark, startup, and running were resolved.
Sorry if it is fragment and may not make a lot of sense.

 

[Rick Stephens]

I told you I would link the Merc Service Manual for your engine. Here it is, I was on the ignition page.
http://boatinfo.no/lib/mercruiser/ma...er10.html#/136


Great post from jaa

Rick

 

[Motodox]

I just checked timing and I was at 6* after tdc. So I adjusted the distributor until I sat at 6* before tdc like the manual says. Still nothing!

 

[Motodox]

[h=2]Based on everything you have done to diagnosis the issue, I would have to be leaning to the electronic ignition module being the issue as Rick Stephens also said. It is most likely in the realm of the coil or module.

my issue: (somewhat similar)
I have a merc 140 in which my boat was converted to a pertronix 1 unit. After installing it and setting it up. I was having start up issue. It would basically take me 15 minutes to warm up the engine to be able pull it off trailer. Basically it was stalling every time in gear, but once warm ran great. Then it started to stop running when on water and did start but many time had issues starting again.(and yes everything is set up). So I came on here and every one gave suggestion. So I had a fuel pump replaced, added a ballast resistor, cleaned carb multiple times and actually rebuilt it twice. I also replaced spark wires and plugs. Pretty much everything on my engine was new now.

So after busting my brain and continuing the process of narrowing it down and reading articles, I lead me to the pertronix 1. What I found out was, that at some point I left the key turned on without the engine run. This will add excessive power which heats up the unit and can make it work incorrectly over multiple times. I then called up pertronix and had some discussion with their tech guys, and mentioned about the colored spark and such and to check voltage and what not. After telling them that spark was weak, they said it could be the coil. I said listen, I just replaced the coil with a MSD epoxy coil. Epoxy coils hold up better with heat and vibrations than oil. Then I mentioned about pertronix 2. I said what the difference and why would someone goes with that. The tech finally mentioned that well the pertronix 1 was original designed for automotive engines, which use ranges of rpms due to shifting and don’t need to have adjusted dwell. People started putting them on marine engines and were having issues due to the load of the water on the engine when in gear. So they updated the module in the pertronix and number 2. What the pertronix unit 2 has:[/h] [h=2]Features: (http://pertronix.com/prod/ig/ignitor2/default.aspx)[/h] Ignitor II systems develop up to 4 times more energy between 3000 and 5000 RPM than standard ignition systems. High RPM performance is improved when used with the Flame-Thrower II super low resistance (0.6 ohms) 45,000 volt coil.

• Adaptive dwell maintains peak energy throughout the entire RPM range, reducing misfires while improving engine performance.
• Develops on average 4 times more available energy between 3000 and 5000 RPM, and 2 times more available plug voltage.
• Peak current level is reached just prior to spark for maximum energy without the heat build-up, increasing coil and module life.
• Adjusts spark timing at higher RPMs to compensate for the inherent electronic delay.
• Senses startup and develops more energy for quicker, easier starting. Built in reverse polarity and over current protection shuts down the system, preventing component damage.

All of these features are critical and the tech finally explains that marine engines should really only use pertronix 2 and 3. Pertronix 3 is out he said but not really effective on v4 engines. He said definitely get pertonix 2.
Low and behold, I installed it, set everything up and its like night and day. It runs like a car engine. I only have to prime the engine when starting the boat up the first time for that day. Every time after that during the day, it starts like a car. I do not prime it or anything, I just turn the key and it runs.
If you look at other posting under pertronix, other people had pertronix 1 and eventually switched to pertronix 2, and all their issues of spark, startup, and running were resolved.
Sorry if it is fragment and may not make a lot of sense.

So your saying on your 140 merc you had spark but yet still wouldn't fire, then soon as you changed to the pertronix kit II it fired right up ??

 

[jaa241]

Yeah. You said this issue recently just started. When it first was on it was working fine correct?. Did you check your resister wire from your choke. Most likely it is shot, it also suggest you put a ballistic resistor in and you probably don't have that either. To me, I think you over heat the module at some point and I think that is what is giving you an issue. If you worried it may not fix, buy it on amazon, they use to sell it on there, and if not it (which I can't imagine ) return it. Won't cost you anything to return if u have prime.

You can always try and replace a coil. If coils over heat, they stop firing untill cold again and have reduced spark and life after overheated

Even if it may be coil, I'd get a pertronix 2.

 

[Motodox]

Yeah. You said this issue recently just started. When it first was on it was working fine correct?. Did you check your resister wire from your choke. Most likely it is shot, it also suggest you put a ballistic resistor in and you probably don't have that either. To me, I think you over heat the module at some point and I think that is what is giving you an issue. If you worried it may not fix, buy it on amazon, they use to sell it on there, and if not it (which I can't imagine ) return it. Won't cost you anything to return if u have prime.

You can always try and replace a coil. If coils over heat, they stop firing untill cold again and have reduced spark and life after overheated

Even if it may be coil, I'd get a pertronix 2.

Ok where should the ballistic resistor go in between? I have the harness in the motor unwrapped checking connections.

How do I check resistor wire? Just ohm it out

And today after work I tried to run a timing light on it while cranking but it wasn't getting a pick up from plug 1 wire and I know the gun works. I had to use a jumper wire coming out of the distributor to get the clamp around and get a reading for the timing gun. Once I did that I found it to be slightly off but it was running great before, distributor defiantly didn't spin a little.

 

[Motodox]

I also metered the coil while cranking and it drops to 5v if that means anything

I feel like if the timing light gun isn't getting a signal from the plug wire it has to be a weak spark ...

 

[Rick Stephens]

Ballast resistor goes on a 12 volt purple wire .

One side of resistor is 12 volt from key switch, other side is coil plus.

 

[biggjimm]

If you've got a good spark at the coil lead going into the distributor but not at the spark plugs it has to be either the cap, rotor, plug wires or plugs. Or a combination of them. Have you changed all that yet?

Not disagreeing with what was posted about the petronix 1 vs. 2 (which was interesting, by the way) but, if you have a good healthy spark at the coil wire, then the module is doing it's job, correct? And if the cap, rotor & wires are good the engine should fire.

If the petronix unit requires external resistance, then either put a ballast type in it or order the factory style resistor wire & replace it, that's what I did. If not, you need 12v to the coil from the key switch. Also, you jumped 12v to the coil & it didn't start. That eliminates both the resistor wire & the cranking voltage coming from the starter solenoid so if either of those were the issue it should have fired.

 

[Scott Danforth]

Ok where should the ballistic resistor go in between? I have the harness in the motor unwrapped checking connections.

How do I check resistor wire? Just ohm it out

And today after work I tried to run a timing light on it while cranking but it wasn't getting a pick up from plug 1 wire and I know the gun works. I had to use a jumper wire coming out of the distributor to get the clamp around and get a reading for the timing gun. Once I did that I found it to be slightly off but it was running great before, distributor defiantly didn't spin a little.

you already have 8 volts at the end of your resistor wire, your resistor wire is fine.

you have already changed the plugs, you also state you have checked compression, and you have checked that you have spark, and we know you have fuel.

if you have spark that will jump a 7/16" gap, your pertronix is working.

hit the spark plugs with ether to dry them off. replace the cap becasue carbon tracing will fire all cylinders at once (motor will not start). if you dont believe me, take a #2 pencil, go out to your car and draw a line from each spark post on the inside your distributor cap. that faint little line of carbon will be hard to see, and will prevent car from starting.

 

[biggjimm]

Scott's correct, carbon tracing is a bad thing. Had a buddy who taught at the local trade school who had one of those fancy clear caps that he took the pencil to for a training excercise for his students & it was amazing to watch the spark go everywhere inside that cap except where it was supposed to go.

Once you get all that new tune up stuff on there it has to start or you've overlooked or missed something else. Although it seems you've covered everything possible. Let us know how it goes.

 

[Motodox]

Wow! Thank you guys for all the great feed back it's great info that I feel is really helping.

So now I'm just going to wait for the new cap and rotor and wires and see what that does .

I mean if my timing light isn't picking up through the #1 plug wire doesn't that mean I have a weak signal ?



If the new cap rotor wires doesn't fix it then I'm moving to coil.

Because I have all the voltage where it should be. And I've checked all wiring. And reset timing to 6* btdc

When crankin my coil voltage does drop to 5v if that says anything. Is that normal?

And yes I jumped from battery + to coil + and it didn't do anything. I also can get a spark at 7/16. I'm only getting spark with very small gaps. Like .034 thousandth

 

[Scott Danforth]

if your only getting spark to jump a small gap, you have a week spark as well.

 

[biggjimm]

If the coil will jump a 7/16" gap but the plug wires won't, the problem isn't with the coil. Nor is it the module. As far as the coil is concerned, the module is nothing more than a switch that tells it when to fire, if the coil is firing, the module is doing it's job. It has to be after the coil wire in either the cap (which as was pointed out before, is all carboned up) or rotor, wires or plugs. I'll bet once you replace all that, it'll fire up & I'd say it's a combination of a carboned cap & bad wires & maybe flooded & fouled plugs. All of which will lead to a no start situation. Wait until you get your new tune up stuff before you replace anything else. Unless you just got deep pockets like that. Hang in there. It's gonna start. Jim.

 

[Motodox]

Thanks Jim I'm going to do just that. I waiting for wires rotor and cap in the mail. i don't have deep pockets so don't want to just start buying new parts. Hopefully the tune up does it. I just purchased new delco mr43t plugs and have been trying to start with them. Hopefully I have not flooded out or fouled the brand new plugs.

And why would my timing light pick up through the #1 wire. Think it's just not getting the snark it should to give a strong enough signal?