2013, the year of the jet drive?

agallant80

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Oct 25, 2010
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2,328
I would like to see it in the small cruisers. Don't knowhow it would work but it would be allot nicer than having a weekend gone because you hit something and took out your outdrive and prop.
 

emilsr

Senior Chief Petty Officer
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Dec 16, 2010
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774
Re: 2013, the year of the jet drive?

I'm sure the lawsuit has an effect, but I think the market was headed this way anyway. Look at the popularity of PWC's for one thing. What do they do better than a prop driven boat? Accelleration. For lots of family boaters, pulling tubes, skis and whatnot, accelleration is important. You also don't have to worry about smacking the prop on the bottom, remembering to raise the drive when you pull up the ramp, etc. It's even an advantage for the big power guys as they'll soak up much more power than most stern drives without breaking. Jet drives are a good option for many boaters and more and more people are figuring that out.

Lawsuit or not, I think this is a market driven move by the manufacturers.
 

Knot Waiting

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Jun 23, 2006
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761
Re: 2013, the year of the jet drive?

Not to mention that they are easier to maintain, cheaper to operate (less a bump in fuel costs), have fewer moving parts to fail, and can operate at shallower depths. I'm not opposed to them but their idle speed handling is sloppy (try docking in a current) and I know that small, high revving engines don't last as long as their large displacement brethren.
 

Howard Sterndrive

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Re: 2013, the year of the jet drive?

that's odd. Every year we go to the boat show and I see all the Yamaha jetboats, yet I have NEVER seen one on a local lake. And I see hundreds of boats each week in the summer.

Are you sure about Bayliner? They seem to be focusing on outboards - e.g. the new Element with the Mercury 60.
 

Knot Waiting

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Jun 23, 2006
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761
Re: 2013, the year of the jet drive?

Couple of things, Yahaha's control system makes handling at low speed a breese and their engines have improved vastly and are very durable. They went for a little more boost and cut their WOT from 10,000 RPM to 7,500 RPM and it made all the difference.

Curious. What does Yamaha do to make their low speed maneuverability better? I haven't driven any new jet boat.
 

QC

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Mar 22, 2005
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22,783
Re: 2013, the year of the jet drive?

Fuel economy is now on par with I/O's,
Data please. I have seen nothing to support this.

I am a jet supporter. I have driven them and I love the shallow water capability. I just haven't seen any independent tests that indicate they have narrowed that gap. May be narrow enough for most boaters, me included, but data is data...
 

oldjeep

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May 17, 2010
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Re: 2013, the year of the jet drive?

that's odd. Every year we go to the boat show and I see all the Yamaha jetboats, yet I have NEVER seen one on a local lake. And I see hundreds of boats each week in the summer.

Are you sure about Bayliner? They seem to be focusing on outboards - e.g. the new Element with the Mercury 60.

It is rare that I see any as well. See a few seadoo's but around here it is still primarily I/O and inboards
 

QC

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Mar 22, 2005
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22,783
Re: 2013, the year of the jet drive?

I see them here, but I believe they are typically bought by PWC owners moving up. Doesn't mean they aren't good. I did an inspection for a member here on an AR230. I was very impressed.
 

rallyart

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Jun 7, 2008
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1,175
Re: 2013, the year of the jet drive?

Yamaha has had the top selling 23' boat for quite a few years now so I don't think that's much of a change. As far as law suits go, there are so many dealing with jet drive PWC that I don't believe that several dealing with prop injuries have that much weight. Maybe backup cameras, and driver's ed. are the new growth market.
 

JimS123

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Jul 27, 2007
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Re: 2013, the year of the jet drive?

IMHO, lots of misinformation here. But I dunno I can only speak from personal experience. I've had them all....jet, OB, I/O and rowboat....LOL. Never had a straight inboard though. In my experience:

* Maintenance is worse - a dinged prop is eaier to repair and cheaper than an impeller and wear ring.
* Shallow water - see above - I haven't dinged a prop in 30 years. I know when the water gets shallow so I use the power trim and
now the prop is above the bottom so no problem. Skinny water and you are inclined to try it anyway. The new jets are powerful
enough to suck up rocks from 3' down. There goes the impeller and wear ring again.
* Low speed manueverabilty - still sucks
* Fuel economy - sucke even worse....LOL. I mean the usage is high.

Besides all that, Holy crap - ever price a Yamaha jet boat? Thats' surely sticker shock to me. ANY I/O of the same size would be cheaper.

Nobody mentioned weeds - I can't remember the last time I picked up weeds in my I/O. Also, I can't remember the last time I didn't pick up weeds when I had a jet.

Nevertheless, whatever turns you on. Just be informed before you buy.
 

spoilsofwar

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Jun 29, 2011
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1,124
Re: 2013, the year of the jet drive?

Nobody mentioned weeds - I can't remember the last time I picked up weeds in my I/O. Also, I can't remember the last time I didn't pick up weeds when I had a jet.

I agree with most of your points. Replacing a wear ring sucks to be sure, but I in my 10 years of riding and the four Sea-Doo's I've owned, I had to do it exactly once. I never had to replace an impeller because of damage, only out of discretion. You might be right and the more powerful engines they use on jets now suck more debris, as the biggest I ever had was a modified 720 rotax (very old school, I know).

Weeds were always an issue. It really sucked to have to dive in and clear a blockage from under the ski... But I haven't heard or seen of a jet boat made in years that did not have clean out ports. These make clearing any weeds simple and quick.

As for price, I dont think you can really compare XX length jetboat against XX lenth I/O. You always get more usable space with the jets, and IMO, both Yamaha and Sea-Doo give (gave in sea-doo's case) a better looking package and more features then a comparable I/O pleasure boat manufacturer. And, there are some stupid expensive ~20' I/O boats out there; a Cobalt 200's base price is a completely ridiculous $48,000.

I absolutely loved Sea-Doo's recent Challenger line, particularly the 210 and 230's. I would have bought one for sure, had I not been in the market for a cuddy.
 

H20Rat

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Mar 8, 2009
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5,199
Re: 2013, the year of the jet drive?

* Maintenance is worse - a dinged prop is eaier to repair and cheaper than an impeller and wear ring.
* Shallow water - see above - I haven't dinged a prop in 30 years. I know when the water gets shallow so I use the power trim and
now the prop is above the bottom so no problem. Skinny water and you are inclined to try it anyway. The new jets are powerful
enough to suck up rocks from 3' down. There goes the impeller and wear ring again.
* Low speed manueverabilty - still sucks
* Fuel economy - sucke even worse....LOL. I mean the usage is high.

Have you owned any modern jets, made in the last couple of years? I've owned 3, all of year 2000 or newer. I've owned pretty much every other type of boat also...

* Maintenance is basically the same. I change stator and pump oil in mine, really no different than an outboard

* Shallow water... I'd beg to differ on that one, or at least laugh at you in a prop boat following me. I OFTEN boat in water as shallow as 4-5 inches. I've zipped right by friends that were hung up on sand bars. Of course, this has a lot to do with the bottom. I've got a nice sandy surface, if I do touch down there is no damage. If you are moving at speed, you don't suck things up into the drive. The drive lifts sand/rocks up, and they actually hit the ride plate. (mine looks like someone took a ball peen hammer to it, but the impeller is flawless)

* Manueverabilty... The only people that complain about that are the ones that haven't taken the time to learn how to drive a jet. I can EASILY outhandle any single screw boat, any day of the week. My single jet is on par with an experienced operator on a twin screw. My typical docking maneuver is to come straight into the slip, stop, and then rotate 180 degrees in place. Once I am facing out, I slide the boat straight over to the side, and ease up to the dock. That entire maneuver is 100% impossible with a single screw.


* Fuel economy... I'll let boattest show you that one... Picked two random boats that are fairly similar. Used a bowrider that is one foot larger, as that has the same or less interior space as the jet.

Yamaha (1812cc engine) sx190 jet boat best cruise: 24.7 mph/4.51 mpg
Bayliner (220hp MPI 4.3l) 205 bowrider best cruise: 24.9 mph/4.34 mpg

kinda seems like maybe the jet has BETTER mileage!
 

dingbat

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Nov 20, 2001
Messages
15,414
Re: 2013, the year of the jet drive?

Yamaha (1812cc engine) sx190 jet boat best cruise: 24.7 mph/4.51 mpg
Bayliner (220hp MPI 4.3l) 205 bowrider best cruise: 24.9 mph/4.34 mpg

kinda seems like maybe the jet has BETTER mileage!
We will not mention that the 205 is 25% heavier (#2840 vs #2160) and has a foot more wetted surface.
;)
 

QC

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 22, 2005
Messages
22,783
Re: 2013, the year of the jet drive?

And that wakeless speed MPG is HORRIBLE. And you say "so what?". Wakeless speed is the only relief we get, and the jets don't have it.

The other thing left out is that the larger Bowriders are all using twins. They have a total of 420 Horsepower and struggle to get 51 MPH. I have a 24 foot bowrider (bigger by modern standards) and I run 57 MPH with 320 bhp. That difference is efficiency of the hull plus the drive system. Yes, weight, and wetted surface too, but I am guessing I have similar numbers to those boats. All 20 degree bottoms. I am NOT down on jets, but the numbers matter. It doesn't make any sense to ignore them, I kinda think our deal here is to discuss them.
 

OrangeTJ

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
Aug 16, 2012
Messages
95
Re: 2013, the year of the jet drive?

IMHO, lots of misinformation here. But I dunno I can only speak from personal experience. I've had them all....jet, OB, I/O and rowboat....LOL. Never had a straight inboard though. In my experience:

* Maintenance is worse - a dinged prop is eaier to repair and cheaper than an impeller and wear ring.
* Shallow water - see above - I haven't dinged a prop in 30 years. I know when the water gets shallow so I use the power trim and
now the prop is above the bottom so no problem. Skinny water and you are inclined to try it anyway. The new jets are powerful
enough to suck up rocks from 3' down. There goes the impeller and wear ring again.
* Low speed manueverabilty - still sucks
* Fuel economy - sucke even worse....LOL. I mean the usage is high.

Besides all that, Holy crap - ever price a Yamaha jet boat? Thats' surely sticker shock to me. ANY I/O of the same size would be cheaper.

Nobody mentioned weeds - I can't remember the last time I picked up weeds in my I/O. Also, I can't remember the last time I didn't pick up weeds when I had a jet.

Nevertheless, whatever turns you on. Just be informed before you buy.

Couple things -

1.) I would agree that jet drives do not mix well with weed infested waters. Where we boat, there are no weeds, so it's a non issue for us.
2.) Maintenance as compared to a stern drive seems significantly less demanding to me. There are no bellows, no gimbals, no hydraulic lines, no transmission. You do have impellers and wear rings, but unless you're boating somewhere with lots of floating debris or regularly running at low speed in a couple feet of water with gravel/sand bottom, those won't wear out any faster than a prop. Pulling a pump and impeller is about a 30 minute job for even the minimally mechanically inclined (i.e. me - I did it just for fun this winter to see what was involved).
3.) Price - really? When we were looking, we couldn't find ANY comparable 21' sterndrive that our local dealers were willing to let go for less than $10K more than our Yamaha. Sure, the base price of the boat may have been very close, once you added a trailer, bimini, snap out carpet, stereo, filler cushions, bow ladder, table mounts (2), etc. the price shot up tremendously. All that stuff was standard on our Yamaha.
4) Low speed handling - I'll agree, our boat is more of a handful at low speed than the v-drive and sterndrive boats I've driven. It is extremely maneuverable (easy to do a 180 almost on the boat's axis) and very nimble at planing speed, but it requires a fair amount of concentration to get lined up at the dock. The most recent models have modified the reverse gates to supposedly facilitate easier control at low speed, but I've not driven one.
5.) Fuel - Ours has a 50 gallon tank and I've never used more than a 3rd of it in a full day of boating. Works for me, though I'm sure there are more fuel efficient boats. I will say that the drive system is not efficient at subplane speeds, requiring quite a lot of revs to go 7 or 8 mph. The solution is to either go slower or faster. When you have a looooong no-wake zone, though, that can get annoying.
6.) Layout - we LOVE the layout of our 2011 SX210 - 8'6" beam with full wrap-around seating in the main cockpit and a bow area that is more spacious than anything we've seen in this size of sterndrive. Most of the I'O's we looked at had a single bench across the back and a pair of pedestal chairs. Layout in ours is much more similar to a v-drive wake boat. Two very large in floor wet lockers, a huge port side storage cabinet (big enough that we have a porta potty in there for the kids). Swim deck is huge and comfortable to hang out on - even has a table mount.

It's really a great boat for our needs. I would definitely recommend that anybody looking for a good, comfortable and versatile family boat at least check them out. Not for everybody, but perfect for us.
 

jestor68

Commander
Joined
Jun 12, 2012
Messages
2,308
Re: 2013, the year of the jet drive?

Don't jet drives still suffer something like a 30% efficiency lose compared to prop drive, or has that changed? I don't have confidence in the durability of a motor that runs at those rpm levels. I'm sure that they'll last through the warranty period though.

I have owned a couple of PWC where the jet drive is necessary, but I wouldn't consider a jet in a larger boat.

What is a reference for Yamaha jet boats being number one in sales, other than that blurb from 2009 which mentioned a select number of states? Their own web site brags about being the number one selling "jet boat"; not number one selling "boat".

I find it interesting that it takes twin super charged jets to equal the performance of a single I/O. Maybe it's that efficiency thing.
 

QC

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 22, 2005
Messages
22,783
Re: 2013, the year of the jet drive?

I find it interesting that it takes twin super charged jets to equal the performance of a single I/O. Maybe it's that efficiency thing.
No, I think it's that cost thing . . . They make a BUNCH of these coupled with the same pump. One makes little boat go, two make bigger boat go ;)

I don't have confidence in the durability of a motor that runs at those rpm levels.
That doesn't bother me at all. They know how to build them to spin faster, and pleasure craft just don't wear out if maintained.
 

OrangeTJ

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
Aug 16, 2012
Messages
95
Re: 2013, the year of the jet drive?

Don't jet drives still suffer something like a 30% efficiency lose compared to prop drive, or has that changed? I don't have confidence in the durability of a motor that runs at those rpm levels. I'm sure that they'll last through the warranty period though.

I have owned a couple of PWC where the jet drive is necessary, but I wouldn't consider a jet in a larger boat.

What is a reference for Yamaha jet boats being number one in sales, other than that blurb from 2009 which mentioned a select number of states?

I find it interesting that it takes twin super charged jets to equal the performance of a single I/O. Maybe it's that efficiency thing.

By all accounts, the engines in these boats are very reliable. In fact, In over a year of participating in a Yamaha specific forum where people talk about everything to do with their boats, I've yet to see even one post talking about an engine failure in any of the 4 stroke engines that have been in use since 2006. Having two engines does provide some peace of mind as well, as even if one did fail, you could still get back to the ramp with the other. RPM is higher than what you'd normally see in an inboard, but they are short stroke motors designed to run there. The engines in the twin engine boats(at least the Yamahas) are not supercharged, although a single supercharged engine is available in the single engine 19 foot 192 models. Rather, there are two versions of naturally aspirated engines, both 4 cylinder - 1052 cc engines (110 hp each) or 1800cc engines (180 hp each) Our boat has the twin 1052's for 220 hp and runs 47 on top with the family, a full tank of fuel and normal boating gear. The 212 series is the 21 foot version with twin 1800's and they apparently top out in the 55 range. The 24 footers run only the larger engines and top out in the low 50's. I guess they aren't the fastest boats on the water but considering that we rarely spend much time cruising above 35 or 40, it's irrelevant to us. Hole shot and acceleration are excellent, though, with the boat getting on plane extremely quickly.
 

roscoe

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
21,657
Re: 2013, the year of the jet drive?

I agree with most of your points. Replacing a wear ring sucks to be sure, but I in my 10 years of riding and the four Sea-Doo's I've owned, I had to do it exactly once. I never had to replace an impeller because of damage, only out of discretion. You might be right and the more powerful engines they use on jets now suck more debris, as the biggest I ever had was a modified 720 rotax (very old school, I know).

Weeds were always an issue. It really sucked to have to dive in and clear a blockage from under the ski... But I haven't heard or seen of a jet boat made in years that did not have clean out ports. These make clearing any weeds simple and quick.

As for price, I dont think you can really compare XX length jetboat against XX lenth I/O. You always get more usable space with the jets, and IMO, both Yamaha and Sea-Doo give (gave in sea-doo's case) a better looking package and more features then a comparable I/O pleasure boat manufacturer. And, there are some stupid expensive ~20' I/O boats out there; a Cobalt 200's base price is a completely ridiculous $48,000.

I absolutely loved Sea-Doo's recent Challenger line, particularly the 210 and 230's. I would have bought one for sure, had I not been in the market for a cuddy.

I'm guessing you wouldn't have any repairs at all if you get a new one every 2-3 years.
 

OrangeTJ

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
Aug 16, 2012
Messages
95
Re: 2013, the year of the jet drive?

On price, I just quickly went out and looked at listed base prices of 21 foot bowriders from Bayliner, Monterey and Sea Ray. With no options and base power (4.3 V6), these started at approximately $32,500, $45,000 and $53,000 respectively. Yamaha's base 21 footer, the SX210, lists at $36,499. At that price, the boat includes things that are optional and will add to price on the others (bimini, trailer, snap out carpet, etc.).
 
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