1997 Ocen Pro 200 - rough idle cold and surges every once in a while

Hi guys/gals, I'm new to this forum. Lots of good info here. Thanks for that.

I've made a new friend and he has a Wellcraft with an Ocean Pro 200. He has discovered that I possess pretty extensive mechanical skills and has asked me to help him with some minor issues with his motor. So we went fishing last week so I could catch some fish and also have a look at the problems he's been experiencing.

The motor is a bit rough on start up...although it wasn't too bad on the day I was there. Lots of smoke and vibration/missing on initial start. (he goes out often, twice a month usually) He says sometimes it dies continuously even after he's been to the bait boat. But once he's had it up to speed/temp and good and cleaned out it's fine the rest of the day. I experienced a bit of cold start issue and it was fine from the launch doc after a few minutes...although a bit rough at odd times. And when we were motoring in on our return through the no wake zone the motor was a bit rough...seems to have a low rpm miss later in the day when it's warm too...and he says that day it wasn't as bad as it has been recently on return to the launch doc.

Also about 15 minutes after first start, we were motoring thru rough seas at about 30mph and the motor gained a few hundred rpm without input from the throttle. It only did this one time that day that I noticed but he says he has experienced this before on other occasions.

So this next week I plan to dig into it for a tuneup...probably a thorough carb clean and setup check, new spark plugs and timing check, combustion chamber decarb, check the fuel pump and boat fuel system as described in threads here, and water pump impeller and oil change while I'm at it. I have an OEM Evinrude Service manual on the way. He provided me with a Seloc and imo it's crap...as you all have indicated.

Anything I should be particularly sensitive to while I'm completing all this maintenance? Your thoughts are greatly appreciated and thanks in advance for any and all help.

-Eric

Re: 1997 Ocen Pro 200 - rough idle cold and surges every once in a while

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=574969

Re: 1997 Ocen Pro 200 - rough idle cold and surges every once in a while

thank you for that. yep I plan on doing all that.

-E

Re: 1997 Ocen Pro 200 - rough idle cold and surges every once in a while

Eric, When that motor is first started cold, the quickstart system is in operation and she will run rough until she warms up. You should hear the motor slow down and run smoother when it warms up and Quickstart turns off.

Just a data point for you.

Re: 1997 Ocen Pro 200 - rough idle cold and surges every once in a while

Chris1956 said:

Eric, When that motor is first started cold, the quickstart system is in operation and she will run rough until she warms up. You should hear the motor slow down and run smoother when it warms up and Quickstart turns off.

Just a data point for you.

Click to expand...

yes I did notice it did this. I guess I have to research the quickstart system and see if it could be contributing to the problems after it releases control back to the normal running system. Is there any service or refresh procedures for the quickstart system? However the motor starts and runs pretty good on the quickstart. It's just when it is back to idle that things get really rough and smokey...and sometimes much rougher than others. The owner claims that on some days due to the motors rough running issues it's a royal pain to get out of the no wake zone and get the motor opened up. And I guess due to multiple restarts this has caused a low battery condition and some real nail biting on the worst days.

And then there is the issue of the rpms increasing uncommanded while up and running on plane. This doesn't happen often but when it does it is very noticeable. Could there be some sort of leak in the quickstart system that is sealing up and allowing the mixture to return to normal?

Also keep in mind that the owner has been running this boat for over 10 years and these issues have gradually gotten worse over time. It's only the last 6 months or so that it has prompted him to get serious about doing something about it.

Thanks for the thoughts guys.

-E

Re: 1997 Ocen Pro 200 - rough idle cold and surges every once in a while

Well, a test of the idle and max spark timing is in order. Check the condition of the spark plugs. Also, carbs get dirty over time. You can try some Seafoam (see sticky for procedure), and also give the idle orafices a blast of gumout.

Re: 1997 Ocen Pro 200 - rough idle cold and surges every once in a while

so I started poking around today. found some interesting issues. there is a broken plastic linkage follower from the carb linkage arm. pic below. also it seems as though one of the carb butterflies is making contact before the other 5...all of the butterflies do seem to close but it seems as though the timing of the butterflies could be a bit better.


I took off the 3 accessable plates on the sides of the throttle bodies...those 3 seemd to be very clean and the seals were in great shape. there does seem to be a bit of fuel leaking from the carbs...like the floats are set too high or the needles aren't seating and sealing.

After I get the plastic follower part I'm gonna link and synch the carb/TBs and check the timing mechanism and timing. Hopefully this will fix the rough issues at cold start idle. But I think a full carb rebuild will be due soon due to the leakage mess...not too bad just annoying seepage.

Re: 1997 Ocen Pro 200 - rough idle cold and surges every once in a while

Some of those motors have an outer roller on the carb linkage. You might look at the crowleymarine website and see if your motor has that piece. The outer rollers crack and fall off.

Re: 1997 Ocen Pro 200 - rough idle cold and surges every once in a while

Chris1956 said:

Some of those motors have an outer roller on the carb linkage. You might look at the crowleymarine website and see if your motor has that piece. The outer rollers crack and fall off.

Click to expand...

yeah this motor has it. everything else seems to be in pretty good order save for a little leakage seepage...and linkage adjustment.

what spark plugs does everyone like...I have always used NGK but Champion seems to be a popular part around the parts pages on boat forums.

-E

Re: 1997 Ocen Pro 200 - rough idle cold and surges every once in a while

Champion QL78YC is a good spark plug. Some auto parts places carry them. That motor likely has the Optical ign system and needs the "Q" supressor spark plugs.

Re: 1997 Ocen Pro 200 - rough idle cold and surges every once in a while

Does NOT have an optical ignition system.
Uses QL78YC plugs, .030 gap.

You better check post #2 again, and forget QuickStart for now.
Go for the most likely cause, not the most unlikely.

Re: 1997 Ocen Pro 200 - rough idle cold and surges every once in a while

Ok. the engine is not firing on #3 at all ever that I can tell. all other cyls have spark. I have swapped coils and wires around and the problem remains with #3.

I have downloaded the CDI Electronics trouble shooting guide. One problem is that the guide specs out the QL78YC for the OIS versions and the QL77JC4 for the non-OIS. This motor had the QL78YC in it and I do see that the manual calls for these plugs.

Another problem is that the part # on the power pack, 585114, does not match the part # on the crowley parts catalog for this motor E200TXEUA. Also the colors of the wires on the power pack don't match the CDI Electronics trouble shooting guide for the 6 cylinder quick-start models. Actually some of the wire colors match...the coil wires match and the 4 pin plug wires match (going to the flywheel pickups)...but the wires I am supposed to test to ground are all wrong...white, brown, brown/yellow, brown/white, brown/black...these all seem to be different except the brown.

what the heck? why can't I find the right color wires or the right trouble shooting guide? something is screwy with me or this damn powerpack or something. I guess I'm just gonna have to make the DVA and follow the manuals trouble shooting guide.

help please.

-E

Re: 1997 Ocen Pro 200 - rough idle cold and surges every once in a while

You are getting alot of conflicting info...
First....this is not an OIS model. Use QL78YC plugs.
Secondly, Evinrude's website states that the power pack part number is 586212.
You must understand that they DO NOT update their website. The part number that was current when the engine was made is the number that is on the website.
Now, later in time, there are superceded numbers. That pack has changed numbers once since the 586212 number. The newer number is 586661.
CDI makes a pack that is the correct pack for your engine and it is numbered 113-6212, or you can buy the 586661 from Evinrude dealer.

I think you must have mis-typed a number above. There is no 585144. You should have typed 585114. That is an old version of the same pack that works on your motor. Crowley's (and many other websites) pulls data from Evinrude's main database, so that is why they show an old number also. When you order an old number, the order pickers automatically give you the latest and greatest number (or should anyway).

Now....the wire colors. I don't see where you are getting those colors. Are you referring to some printed documentation, or are these the colors you are actually seeing under the pack?
The wires under the pack are often discolored with age.
But nevertheless, coming from the stator to the pack in two different pairs, you should have brown wires. They go to two separate two pin rubber connectors. Then there are two orange wires, one with a black stripe. They are single bullet style connectors.
Then you will have two four wire rubber connectors, one side will have blue, purple, green, and black/white. The other side will have blue, purple, green, and white.
There are miscellaneous others, unrelated to the problem of ONE cyl not firing.
The wire that fires #3 cylinder from the timer base to the pack is the STBD side four conductor cable; the purple wire. Check for an open on that wire, pushed back pin, corroded wire inside the rubber boot, etc.

Your troubleshooting guide on CDIs site starts on page 52, and having just scanned it quickly, I see that the wire colors they quote are not correct. There are no brown/(any color) wires under there.

Give me your e-mail address in a PM and I will send you the proper info.

You are unlikely to find a bad pack by reading resistance anyway.

Re: 1997 Ocen Pro 200 - rough idle cold and surges every once in a while

man youre good...yeah I had checked the p# and edited it just before your post. 585114 is the #. also the CDIs guide is where I was getting those colors and I suspected they were wrong. the colors under my power pack are as you describe. I am on my way to fry's/radio shack to gather stuff to make the DVA and follow the manuals recommendation. but first I'll poke around the wires and see if I can get it firing just checking the connections. I checked the resistance from the #3 coil wire to the purple wire and it reads 165 (out of spec). #1 reads in the 160s as well but #1 fires fine. the other 4 are within the range at about 145 or so. but since #1 reads in the same range as #3 I can't really rule out #3 as bad since #1 should also be bad.

I'll keep poking and prodding and measuring volts and ohms till I find something definitive.

-E

Re: 1997 Ocen Pro 200 - rough idle cold and surges every once in a while

daselbee said:

Your troubleshooting guide on CDIs site starts on page 52, and having just scanned it quickly, I see that the wire colors they quote are not correct. There are no brown/(any color) wires under there.

Click to expand...

I see what they are doing with this reference to brown/colored stripe wires that do not exist.
There are a total of four brown wires under there. Two pairs....
They have for some reason broken those wires into four different brown/colored stripe wires. Just read their guide as solid brown instead of the brown/colored stripe that they say is under there.

Also, remember that one cylinder not firing can be caused by a bad timer base as well as a bad pack.

Re: 1997 Ocen Pro 200 - rough idle cold and surges every once in a while

Is that e-mail in a PM coming? You will need the info I will send you.


EDIT:
Also, remember that if you have 5 cyls firing correctly, there is nothing wrong with the brown wire pairs, and there is nothing wrong with the orange pair. The problem lies in the individual circuit for #3 within the timer base or pack, or in that purple wire I referenced above.

I once had a problem with one cyl dead. #2 would fire during a spark test, but drop out dead immediately when QuickStart disengaged, about 10 secs after starting.
Weirdest thing. I thought for sure it was the pack. It turned out to be the timer base. I still have the bad one, if anyone doubts me. It is very easy to duplicate. It is a CDI TB too.

Re: 1997 Ocen Pro 200 - rough idle cold and surges every once in a while

checked the wot timing setting yesterday. plugs out. quick start disabled via the temp switch wire grounded and the ylw/red disconnected. cranking motor with batt charger on to make sure high crank speed. light shot exactly 14 degrees which is exactly 4 less than the books 18 degree setting. now it's my understanding that unless you have a test prop and a tank you really can't set this any other way.

question, once the wot timing is set, does the idle timing fall into place automatically...mechanically? I can't find a specific idle timing procedure in the oem manual...besides "checking the timing after wot timing is set" under way in the water at idle...4 degrees I think at 650rpm IIRC.

thanks guys.

-E

Re: 1997 Ocen Pro 200 - rough idle cold and surges every once in a while

I have some new info. some maybe related some not. remember how the motor developed a spark issue on #3 and I thought I fixed it by moving stuff around. well turns out that there is spark on #3 only when the quick start is engaged. once the quick start turns off the spark on #3 goes away again. what does that tell us?

also, the tachometer reads a couple thousand rpms high...and is a bit erratic in what it reads. idle is in the 2500-4000 range and at full throttle it will indicate more than 8k. I know that is not right. I initially didn't think these 2 items were related but I am starting to think that there is an electrical issue maybe with the stator or rectifier that is causing the tach to read incorrectly and for #3 to drop out...any thoughts?

thanks for all your help guys.

-E

Re: 1997 Ocen Pro 200 - rough idle cold and surges every once in a while

I had EXACTLY the same thing happening regarding your spark loss, but it was cyl #2.
Always had good spark when spark testing, because QS is always engaged for the first ten secs or so.
Just happened to have the timing light hooked to #2, was watching when that 10 secs was up, QS dropped out, #2 quit sparking.
Did it everytime.
I immediately thought powerpack, everyone else thought powerpack...it was the timer base.

I still have the timerbase, and have reproduced it many times on other powerheads.

Re: 1997 Ocen Pro 200 - rough idle cold and surges every once in a while

yeah I read about that in one of your posts. so is there a way I can test to see if it's for sure the timer base? will the peak volts output tests whittle it down to either the power pack or the timer base?

also, any thoughts on the tach issues...related or not to the cylinder dropping out?

Thanks,

-E