Batteries - Chargers and what you should know.

Bubba1235

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Seems to be lots of confusion about batteries, charging them, how long they should last, etc. so I thought I?d put together some basic information for anyone wanting it.

Let?s start with the difference between a standard automotive cranking battery and a deep cycle battery used for trolling or a ?house? battery. A cranking battery needs to be able to produce very high amperage for a short amount of time. (Long enough to crank the engine over) A house battery needs to produce a lower amperage but over a longer span of time. Due to the very different needs the two types of batteries are constructed differently. A true deep cycle battery has solid lead plates which helps prevent them from warping when discharged heavily over time. An automotive battery has perforated plates and if you cut the battery apart the plates actually look a lot like a sponge. The greater surface area of the sponge like plates can produce higher amperages. (More acid in contact with more of the lead plates.) Why not just make them all bigger and with solid plates? Weight and size. A true deep cycle battery that was capable of providing the same amperage draw (high amps / short duration) as a cranking battery would be two or three times the size and weight of the cranking battery.

Now for the surprising part, most ?deep cycle? batteries sold for Marine / RV use are NOT true deep cycle in the sense they do NOT have solid lead plates and instead are a hybrid of the two types. In general, that is a good thing because in the same way a deep cycle battery cannot produce the high amps of an automotive battery, they can NOT be charged as fast an automotive battery without damaging them. Most boats are set up so that the engines alternator recharges the house batteries when the engine is running. The average engine alternator can produce 60 to 100 amps and that is FAR too high of a current for a true deep cycle battery so a hybrid version is used. If you want to use a true deep cycle battery (or bank of them) you must use a current limiting device to prevent over charging from the engines alternator. (Or replace the batteries far too often.)

Next up, determining the charge of the battery. Many people don?t understand when their battery is discharged. For all practical purposes a battery that is discharged to 10.5 volts is considered ?dead?. WARNING, discharging a battery beyond this point will ruin it in no time and it will never be able to be fully recharged again. It will take what is known as a ?surface charge? but you will never get the longevity from it again. In figure 1 are the approximate voltage / charge states. As an example, a battery that is 50% discharged should still read 12.06 volts with no load on it. A battery that is 80% discharged will have a voltage of 11.58 with no load. So how low should you discharge a battery? That really depends on how often you want to replace it. The further you discharge the battery, the more you cut down on its number of charge / discharge cycles. In figure 2 you can see the effect that deeply draining the battery has on its life. A battery that is routinely discharged to its maximum (10.5 volts) will provide less than 200 charge / discharge cycles while the same battery that is discharged by only 30% will provide over 1200 cycles. (Yes, it really is that big of a deal.) So what is the sweet spot? Most manufactures will say around 50%. That is based on what is practical. If you wanted to never go below 30% discharge you would need two batteries to produce the same amount of power and as batteries are big and heavy you don?t want to fill your boat with batteries.

At some point we will all have to test a battery to determine its condition and the best way to do it is with a hydrometer. Unfortunately a LOT of batteries sold as Marine / RV deep cycle batteries are sealed making testing with a hydrometer all but impossible. One of the big reasons I don?t buy sealed batteries, that and the fact I like to make certain they have the proper amount of electrolyte in them. With a hydrometer not only can you check the batteries over all condition, you can check each battery cell. To use a hydrometer you will want to fully charge the battery, let it sit 10 to 12 hours and then test. One of the key things you are looking for is that all the cells read the same or within .05 variance. If they aren?t all relatively close in specific gravity the battery is on its way to failure and should be replaced in the near future. In Figure 3 you can see what the charge state is by measuring the specific gravity of the electrolyte.

Charging rates are also very often misunderstood. Faster is NOT better! The typical deep cycle battery should be charged over 8 to 10 hours. Charging them faster shortens their life just as surely as discharging them too fast or too deeply will. So what size charger should be used? As noted above, manufactures recommend not going below the 50% discharge level so we will assume that is as far as we push them. Now let?s say it?s a 100 AH (Amp Hour) battery so we divide the AH rating by two (50% discharge) and then divide that by the time it takes to charge them, say 8 hours.

100 divided by 2 = 50 divided by 8 = 6.25. In this scenario the charger should NOT produce more than 6.25 amps at its maximum output.

If you have a bank of batteries, (say four) you add their AH together and do the same math. (Four 100 AH batteries)

4 x 100 = 400 divided by 2 = 200 divided by 8 = 25. In this scenario the charger should NOT produce more than 25 amps at its maximum output.

Yes I know, someone will chime in and say they charge them faster. Those people also replace them more often than they need to. ;-) Charging at a higher rate than is needed only wastes electrical power, overheats the batteries, and shortens the batteries life span.

There is an exception, this formula is for ?flooded? batteries. Gel batteries MUST be charged considerably slower and if you use them you should get the manufactures specifications on charge rates. In a flooded battery (standard lead acid) if bubbles are formed during charging they float to the top of the acid and pose no problem. In a Gel battery the bubbles can?t float and you end up with voids in the gel and that reduces the contact with the plates and you end up with a poorly performing battery.

Discharge rates can also be confusing due to how the AH rating is computed. There are two variables when considering AH ratings, the amps you can draw and what period of time you can draw them. The vast majority of ratings for AH are based on 20 hours of use / discharge. What does that mean in the real world? Lets again take a 100 AH battery as our average battery. In THERORY that battery should produce 100 amps for 1 hour. In the real world it comes nowhere close to that. At 100 amps draw that battery would be lucky to last 20 minutes. Again, the industry standard is to calculate AH based on 20 hours of discharge. That means you could pull 5 amps for 20 hours. Keep in mind that is with a new battery in perfect condition, as they age and go through the charge / discharge cycle that AH rating falls off. Most manufactures will provide a discharge rate (curve) based on load and time and it?s worth reviewing before buying! In my opinion there are two companies that stand head and shoulders above the rest when it comes to deep cycle batteries providing the most power for the longest period of time, Trojan and Crown. Unfortunately they charge a price commensurate with their product.

Maintenance chargers are something I?d like to see kicked to the curb. They work well enough on NEW batteries that are in top condition but reduce the life span as the batteries age. How so? Go back to figure 1 and you see that a fully charged battery should have 12.7 volts while a battery with only 90% charge has 12.5 volts. That is only a difference of .2 volts. Now let?s say your batteries are a year old and have been through 50 charge / discharge cycles. It may well be that they can only get to say 90% or 95% of the full charge they could obtain when new. The problem is, a maintenance charger has no way of determining if your battery is old or new and it will continue to try to charge it to 100%. As it can?t, it just sits there cooking the battery. In my opinion you are MUCH better off having a 2 amp trickle charger you put on the battery for a 3 or 4 hours once a month during non-use periods.
 

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NYBo

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Re: Batteries - Chargers and what you should know.

I smell a stickie! Thanks, Bubba.;)
 

fucawi

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Re: Batteries - Chargers and what you should know.

Edit: Please relax. - QC

First ..No battery has ever been made with solid lead plates ...how would the acid penetrate into the lead ? you would only have the surface.....All lead acid batteries have porus/spongy lead plates ..thicker in a leisure battery but never solid.

Second ....an alternator will only produce its full output into a resistive load NOT A BATTERY...with a regualtor setting of 14.4v the best you will get is a charge current of 20A falling as the battery comes up. And thats for a 100Ah (10hr rate) battery .. If you have a large battery bank say 600AH you should size your alternator at 25A per 100 AH. Your 400ah bank senario is rubbish and all the canal boats in the Uk would stop if they followed your advice.

Third ....an alternator is self regulating for current you dont need any current limiter and I have never seen one in 30 years .

Fourth .....When the battery goes below 10.8v the sulphate in the plate expands and breaks up the grid holding the spongy lead ...so dont go below 10.8 . This does not damage the battery BUT for max life you should not go below 50 % discharge . Often this is not practical. You should always fully charge the battery after use or it may sulphate .

Fifth ..batteries should be charged over 14 hrs at a rate of 1/10 of the AH capacity. with small domestic chargers this is difficult to do so yes the hydrometer ..charge 2 hrs more once it has reached 1280 .

Sixth a 100 AH (20 hr rate) battery will produce 100 A for 1 hr RUBBISH ...it will produce 5 A for 20 hrs and then be 10.8v because 5 x 20 is 100 .......

Seventh.....Charging ......in the old days you charged your battery to 15.3v it gassed you replaced distilled water..it was 100% charged...but to reduce maintanece this voltage was reduced to 14.4v .At this level the battery does not gas and needs less maintanence..But its only 80% charged relative to 15.3v .So there is a problem in what we call fully chaged 80% or 100% .....
There is nothing wrong with a float charger running at 13.8v ...your battery will not gass ..sulphate will be prevented or reduced. Stand by batteries ..sealed gell sit at 13.8v in telephone exchanges for the whole of there 10 year life and are still sold on for further use .....

Eight....a battery is like yourself ..its dying from the moment its born..you cannot prevent this you can only treat it good and hope for a long life....

Ninth ...your SG chart is for a tropical battey used in tropical climates 1280 is fully charged

MY POLICY. Keep posts short ,,,tooo long tooo boring
If I make a mistake I go back and correct it because the internet lives
for ever and we dont want young kids perpetuating the errors of the old .

My advice DELETE THE LOT . Because once you make one technical error your reputation is down the pan
 

John_S

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Re: Batteries - Chargers and what you should know.

It already lives on the net. Here: http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm and many other sites. It seems to match most of what is being said.

Allot of sites don't agree about the trickle chargers. I have seen some mfg call out specificly not to use them. I never have. I charge them at the end of the season, once during the middle of winter, and again before spring. I don't leave any charger on for extended times, smart or not. For whatever the possible failure, it can overcharge the battery.

I have probably only owed hybrid DC. Never spent the money for a trojan or other high end one.
 

DonNZ

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Nov 3, 2011
Messages
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your Alternator the heart of any electrical system.

your Alternator the heart of any electrical system.

Check out battery and alternator temperature senced alternator regulators such as the balmar mc624 ( 24v version a 12 v is available) google belmar mc624
then you can charge as hard out as you wish
another type of battery not metioned is a cycling battery such as your golf cart, probably cheapest energy density in a cycling application.
I would consider limiting the alternator current.
A alternator does not have any current limiting and is quite capable of thermal runaway if consideration is not given. When it is not mostly they are saved from thermal runaway because the power wire used between the alternator and battery is small only because the larger size is more expensive, so this does a dirty job of limiting the current.
Standard practise is to consider this during alternator selection. Ensuring it is large enough for the job or by using a regulator as above which can be programmed to limit the alternator output and reduce it further should it get beyond the programmed temperature set point.
A good rule of thumb to keep the alternator smoke to a minimum and fun times to maximum is never exceed 2/3 max alternator output. So if you want a 100 amps fit a 150 amp alternator.
You should be able to keep your hand on the laminated portion of your belt driven alternator anytime for 3 seconds, if you cant your overheating it.
Spin it fast as you can for cooling but not too fast otherwise it'll fly to bits. Usually between 5 and 8 000 rpm alternator rpm.Check the manufacturers specs. The newer Bosch 12v 120 ~ 200 amp units can spin alot faster so this allows for a faster idle speed therefore more output at idle.

All the above for the decked out hi load system, none nessacary for the weekend bruiser.

Also check out 'stratification' to see why a equalise charge once a month or so is a good idea, any more often then your using battey life.
And 'voltage sensitive relays' to allow for very simple charging and isolation of multiple batteries from a single alternator. such as your house and start batteries.
I do agree the hydrometer is the best battery tester by far and you'll likely buy one for less than $5
keep it in a old drink bottle as electrolyte very corrosive.
Alot more accurate than a $600+ whiz bang battery monitor.

If in doubt have a yarn with your local auto sparky and she'll explain your options and why.

Regards Don
 

fucawi

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Re: your Alternator the heart of any electrical system.

Re: your Alternator the heart of any electrical system.

A alternator does not have any current limiting WRONG

because the power wire used between the alternator and battery is small ..WRONG when the battery reaches full charge the current is low so the wire size though important is not critical

it'll fly to bits. WRONG even the oldes alternators were rated for 12000 rpm only limited by the bearings

Also check out 'stratification' to see why a equalise charge once a month or so is a good idea, TRUE but not important if battery in regular use

And 'voltage sensitive relays' to allow for very simple charging and isolation of multiple batteries Unless of couse your house is 600AH which is a little more than a dual battery set up

If in doubt have a yarn with your local auto sparky and he'll explain your options and why.

This is the last thing to do ...he left school at 16 ..got the job because his dads brother owned the garage and learned all he knows from the old guy who left school at 14 and never went to tech.....
 

DonNZ

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Re: your Alternator the heart of any electrical system.

Re: your Alternator the heart of any electrical system.

Shivers :)


A alternator does not have any current limiting WRONG


Please enlighten how a alternator limits current ?
I've serviced quite a few in applications where too much was asked of them and burnt / melted stators and rectifiers were the result. After repair and advising my client how to load shed or installing a higher output unit problem resolved.

because the power wire used between the alternator and battery is small ..WRONG when the battery reaches full charge the current is low so the wire size though important is not critical

please enlighten what voltage drop is ? perhaps your confused with a superconductor ?
Next time your by your car feel the heaviest wire between the alternator and battery with the engine running at a fast idle. Now turn on your lights, heater, rear screen and electric windows up and down and feel the same wire again, feel it warm ? thats because it's slightly resistive, the thinner the higher the resistance or unwillingness to pass energy.



it'll fly to bits. WRONG even the oldes alternators were rated for 12000 rpm only limited by the bearings

I've serviced alternators used in applications where the speed was exceded and the rotor throws the windings, they are all around the 9000 rpm max , check out the specs for delco ,bosch, presotlite. Especially in race or high reving engines.


Also check out 'stratification' to see why a equalise charge once a month or so is a good idea, TRUE but not important if battery in regular use


I've found it more important if in constant use. As the equalise charge eliminates stratification and will hopefully pick up a tired cell. In a battery you are discharging and charging as one but in a 12v battery there are 6 cells in series with none exactly equal so as good as the weakest.

And 'voltage sensitive relays' to allow for very simple charging and isolation of multiple batteries Unless of couse your house is 600AH which is a little more than a dual battery set up

I've had good success with installations I've made using a VSR. a better result than a charge spiltting diode.
Doesn't matter if the house is 600 amp /hr the vsr would still work but may take a little longer. the restriction will be the alternator capacity.

If in doubt have a yarn with your local auto sparky and he'll explain your options and why.

This is the last thing to do ...he left school at 16 ..got the job because his dads brother owned the garage and learned all he knows from the old guy who left school at 14 and never went to tech.....

Sounds like you oughta try a different auto sparky.
This one also left school at 16 and served a apprenticeship ( sentence ) for 5 1/2 years. Started at $0.80/hr under the training of 3 qualified tradsemen neither of them a relative. This also included attending and passing 2 x 6 week tech school courses and tittie bars in another city for each of the first 4 years. I considered I was lucky to get a excellent beginning to my training all round.

Regards Don
 

fucawi

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Re: your Alternator the heart of any electrical system.

Re: your Alternator the heart of any electrical system.

You must be one in a million
 

fucawi

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Re: your Alternator the heart of any electrical system.

Re: your Alternator the heart of any electrical system.

Ah ..spotted your questions..
.Please enlighten how a alternator limits current ?
The magnetic field from the rotor changes direction in the stator as the rotor passes ..there is a limit to how fast the field can change hence as the revs reach about 8000 this limit is reached and if you study the output graphs you will see the current stops rising...So an alternatdor is self regulating for current ...unlike a dynamo which needs a current regulator or it burns out.

please enlighten what voltage drop is ?
The issue here relates to battery charging ..when the battery reaches full charge the current will only be a couple of amps ( usually taken as 2% of AH capacity in Amps) so the volt drop between the alt and battery is minimal. Now if we are talking supply of resistive components then we have two issues . they re rated for 13.8v operation ( bulbs 13.2v) and with the modern drive to reduce weight as well as higher temperature coatings on the cables the cables may get hotter than in the old days of PVC.

As the equalise charge eliminates stratification
Stratification is a conditon where the SG of the elctrolyte varies from the top to the bottom of the battery usually agrivated by standing on a cold surface for extended periods.In regular use say once a week not a problem. A regular charge to 15v is always a good idea

9000 rpm max , 9000 rpm was the old max for a dynamo 1.5 times engine speed ..Alternators are 2 to 2.5 times engine speed to give output at idle hence 12000+

VSR. a better result than a charge spiltting diode. only a fool would use a split charge diode on a machine sensed alternator ..its no good having a pissy little VSR switching 600AH conncted with 100mm sq cables either
 

fucawi

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Re: Batteries - Chargers and what you should know.

So you dont know anyting ...have not spent 30 years working with the things and now hide behind some statement that its not what you say but someone else ....

100AH is 100A for 1 hr where did you get that ....schoolboy misunderstanding ...

I think the moderator should delete the whole Thread as your statement gives ligitimacy to what is misleading rubbish
 

TerryMSU

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Re: Batteries - Chargers and what you should know.

So you dont know anyting ...have not spent 30 years working with the things and now hide behind some statement that its not what you say but someone else ....

100AH is 100A for 1 hr where did you get that ....schoolboy misunderstanding ...

I think the moderator should delete the whole Thread as your statement gives ligitimacy to what is misleading rubbish

fucawi:

You come across as being very ARROGANT. Since you imply some education, let me suggest that you stop using ad hominem attacks. (For the rest of you... do not attack the man, but rather attack the idea). Well thought out, well spoken arguments will get you a lot further than "....schoolboy misunderstanding ..." and "misleading rubbish". By the way, you might want to do a little reading and research yourself before you make blanket statements.

I suspect that the mods will want to lock this one up. Too bad, because I was seeing some inteligent thought. Thanks for trying, Bubba. Thanks for nothing, fucawi.

TerryMSU
 

kahuna123

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Messages
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Re: Batteries - Chargers and what you should know.

I have worked on everything from 15ft lake boats to commercial 200 passengers as a marine electrician. For the most part I have to agree with fucawi.
Fucawi understand that for the type of boating discussed here a walmart """Hybird""" is ok. There has to be some give an take. But even a true house as we know them would start the average 4 banger. Remember that this type of boating is not commercial. Its 3 months a year.
 

fucawi

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Re: Batteries - Chargers and what you should know.

Thank god someone sees sense Quote...

I have worked on everything from 15ft lake boats to commercial 200 passengers as a marine electrician. For the most part I have to agree with fucawi.

I am more concerned about the perpetuation of rubbish than anyting else
Please moderaters delete this whole thread
 

QC

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Re: Batteries - Chargers and what you should know.

Please moderaters delete this whole thread
Please Fucawi limit your requests to your own threads and tone down your posts.
 

DonNZ

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Re: Batteries - Chargers and what you should know.

Peace and good will
we are mucking about in boats.

following statement for flooded lead acid ( FLA )

Most accurate state of charge test by far even with 2011 technology is still the humble $3.50 hydrometer.

Which maybe 90 % of the inflatable boat scene,
I would suggest ensure your charging voltage is regulated to around 14v to 14.5v. lower for higher ambient temperatures and higher voltage for cold frosts.

Only time I'd go higher would be if I've a battery temperature compensated smart charger.

If the battery feels slightly warmer than the surrounds you are doing it damage, best spot to feel is the negative terminal.

calcium batteries have been slowly introduced to the automotive market cope with higher under bonnet temperatures sometimes hot soak in excess of 100 deg C / 212 F these need a higher voltage around 14.8v


gel and agm need a tighter charge regime again due as they are valve regulated and any electrolyte vented cannot be replaced.

I've set up temperature compensated charging a mc 624 belmar regulating a presotolite 175 amp alternator and 2 x 70 amp victron inverter chargers of cycle batteries set up in a 24v battery at 1/4 capacity ( set to 220 amp max @ ~ 28 v ) and still well inside inside the manufactures specification.
This is still on same cells at 6 years.

Regards Don
 

Rick.

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Re: Batteries - Chargers and what you should know.

Edit: Please relax. - QC
Eight....a battery is like yourself ..its dying from the moment its born..you cannot prevent this you can only treat it good and hope for a long life....
My advice DELETE THE LOT . Because once you make one technical error your reputation is down the pan

Should have said Eighth not Eight. Rick.
 

fucawi

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Re: Batteries - Chargers and what you should know.

I like your style rick but you confuse technical error with typing error ha ha I guess you went through it and thay was the only error I made ....

Good luck eveyone and may your batteries live a long and healthy life....
 

wagnerz

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Sep 13, 2011
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Re: Batteries - Chargers and what you should know.

What damage is done to a deep cycle battery if you use it to start your engine and run your engine off of it?
 

John_S

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Re: Batteries - Chargers and what you should know.

They can be used for starting. They are just larger than the equivelent CCA/MCA starting battery.
 
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