'65 e-rude 33hp: HALF SPEED @ full throttle

Hello iboaters,

just got back from the cabin and have bad news. Let me lay this out in cliffsnotes.

- starts perfectly, idles fine.
- when in gear it gets to aprox half it's normal speed, even if I throttle all the way open, it just won't get any faster. It isn't REVVING higher just stops getting faster and stays revving the same. The throttle indicator is not stuck, as you can see it moving to WOT on the outside of motor, just limits its speed like mentioned above.
-primer bulb gets hard initially [not ROCK hard, but hard]. after motor starts it looses it's stiffness after you shut it off, i read this is normal though?? Tank is vented while running

There were no visible cracks/leaks in the hoses anywhere. We tried with TWO DIFFERENT gas tanks and tank lines, so it's not an issue with the gas tank or bulb.

It was at mechanics for lower end recently work and he said he's never seen an old motor run like this, meaning very strong/good [it has VERY FEW hours on it in its life, has been rebuilt about 5years back too].

I have the service manuals for this motor, but not sure what I'm checking for diagnosis!? I've just researched similar problems regarding this, but still no dice, as all problems are different. Is it just not getting enough gas sent to motor? The fuel filter is clean.

EASY RANDOM QUESTIONS:
-How do you know if your motor is only running on one piston?
-Is it bad to run your motor if this condition is occurring? [ie: half speed regardless of your throttle position]

Thanks forumites!

EDIT: Before anyone may suggest "rebuild carb and check your high speed jets", a little more might help. Even though I have the manual, I've never done that and not an outboard mechanic by any stretch, even though I'm trying to learn

Re: '65 e-rude 33hp: HALF SPEED @ full throttle

Sounds like one cylinder not firing. There are a few ways to check spark. One is to pull the spark plug wires, one at a time. If you pull one and there is no change, chances are that this is the one not getting spark. If you pull one and the motor quits or won't run, you have found the "good" cylinder. Do not pull the wires with the engine running, unless you have a good set of insulated pliers!

Another way to check, is use a "spark checker." They can be purchased at most auto parts stores, for about five bucks. Set the gap on the device at a tad bit under a half inch and use it to check the ignition on each of your spark plug wires. If you get a good, "fat" spark across the gap, the circuit is OK. Lack of spark may indicate no voltage or weak voltage. You can close the gap on the checker, a little bit at a time, to determine this - if you eventually get spark as the gap is lessened, you have a problem somehwhere in the circuit.

I tend to use an inductive timing light a lot. It won't tell you much about the quality of the spark that you are getting, but its good for a quick check.

BTW, you could also have some junk in the high speed needle valve. I'd check the spark first, just because doing so is easy, but if you are getting ignition top and bottom, that would be my next bit of investigating.



???

Re: '65 e-rude 33hp: HALF SPEED @ full throttle

thanks a bunch for the reply, my friend is still at cabin so I may be able to get him to try this. I've never pulled the plug before, so enlighten me as to what to tell him. I know there are boots on them, but.... Does he just pull the bott from the plug simple as that? [never had to do it, haven't done it on a car either, but im CERTAIN that causes them not to fire, correct?]

Let's see if i have this straight.

1) before starting ignition, pull ONE boot from plug. If it idles the same as before, the other cylinder is potentially the bad one [as the firing cylinder is going].

2) shut off ignition. install the plug boot back on, remove other boot.

3) start ignition again, if motor DOESN'T start up [even though it will try and turn over], THAT cylinder appears to be bad/not firing.

4) If it starts again, that means both cylinders were in fact firing in the first place.

---------------
correct about my order of operations there?

PS: my friend ran the boat like 5 minutes from boat launch to cabin, then I had to bring it back, so it ran like 15 minutes total [random driving trying to get it fixed] over the weekend... Is running your O/B on one cylinder harmful to the motor? [for that long, or even for a long time, to expand my knowledge on this]

Thank you AGAIN for the in depth reply.

Re: '65 e-rude 33hp: HALF SPEED @ full throttle

I like removing the plugs altogether. Then put a plug in the boot and sit the plug someplace on the motor that is grounded. Spin the starter and look for spark. Then do the same for the other one. This way you are checking for spark and the seeing if the plug is good.

Re: '65 e-rude 33hp: HALF SPEED @ full throttle

adamsnez2 said:

thanks a bunch for the reply, my friend is still at cabin so I may be able to get him to try this. I've never pulled the plug before, so enlighten me as to what to tell him. I know there are boots on them, but.... Does he just pull the bott from the plug simple as that? [never had to do it, haven't done it on a car either, but im CERTAIN that causes them not to fire, correct?]

Let's see if i have this straight.

1) before starting ignition, pull ONE boot from plug. If it idles the same as before, the other cylinder is potentially the bad one [as the firing cylinder is going].

2) shut off ignition. install the plug boot back on, remove other boot.

3) start ignition again, if motor DOESN'T start up [even though it will try and turn over], THAT cylinder appears to be bad/not firing.

4) If it starts again, that means both cylinders were in fact firing in the first place.

---------------
correct about my order of operations there?

PS: my friend ran the boat like 5 minutes from boat launch to cabin, then I had to bring it back, so it ran like 15 minutes total [random driving trying to get it fixed] over the weekend... Is running your O/B on one cylinder harmful to the motor? [for that long, or even for a long time, to expand my knowledge on this]

Thank you AGAIN for the in depth reply.

Click to expand...

All is correct, except #4. All that would mean, is that it is running on the one cylinder, as before.

Running on one cylinder due to an ignition problem, isn't going to hurt your motor, because you will be getting fuel/oil mixture to the "dead" cylinder. If one cylinder is not getting fuel on a multi-carb engine, because the carb involved has some dirt in it, you can do damage. This is because that cylinder is getting no fuel/oil mixyure or not enough. You motor has only one carb, so if it is getting fuel at all, it is being lubricated and simply won't run beyond a certain rpm, when under load.

One thing that we have not talked about, but should, is that testing your motor on a hose, won't tell you much. This is because there is no resistence on the engine, so it may act very normal, even though one cylinder is not firing.



???

Re: '65 e-rude 33hp: HALF SPEED @ full throttle

bob1340 said:

I like removing the plugs altogether. Then put a plug in the boot and sit the plug someplace on the motor that is grounded. Spin the starter and look for spark. Then do the same for the other one. This way you are checking for spark and the seeing if the plug is good.

Click to expand...

This is OK as a basic test, but it will not give you a complete indication of spark quality. When a plug is installed in the cylinder and compressed fuel/air mixture is involved, the resistance involved is higher. This is why the gap set on an adjustable spark tester is so much wider than on an actual sparkplug.



???

Re: '65 e-rude 33hp: HALF SPEED @ full throttle

where you corrected me on #4, i meant to say one cylinder.. doesn't even make sense what I wrote as the whole issue here is a potential non-firing cyl. it was late, my mistake, typos will never happen again

To the both of you, thanks for the input. Will get my friend to try [lucky guy still at the cabin, off to work for me! :redface:]

Re: '65 e-rude 33hp: HALF SPEED @ full throttle

Jay, you were right.

Bottom cyliinder not firing. Friend doesn;t have any plug sockets @ the cabin to check the condition of the plug. So i'll just pick up 2 new plugs anyway and replace. See questions below

1) where to go from here? I have heard terms like ign.coil (im aware what this does), stator.. but don't know how im troubleshooting backwards from WHY this cylinder is dead in the first place. I know it's the last in line, and there are a few pieces to check before it.

2) the order of parts from last to first in firing order, How does it go so i can research this; (cyl,spark plug,spark wire,coil,stator....what-what?? is that even right so far?)

3) how often do you guys change your plugs? Mine are a few years old. Im going to change them out regardless next weekend when I see boat, even though friend can't tell me if they are fouled.

4) what brand/model have you guys found work best in these O/Bs? i know they are gapped .03


MANY thanks again...Time to start learning and stop paying my mechanic

Re: '65 e-rude 33hp: HALF SPEED @ full throttle

1) Your complete ign system is located under the flywheel, points, condenser and coils. You will have to remove the flywheel to gain access.
2)You are correct in the order except that you also have a set of points and condenser for each cylinder, under the flywheel, you do not have a stator.
3) Depends on condition of the plug, some may change every year, some every couple of years depending on use.
4) Champion plugs are the most commonly used plugs in your engine.

Re: '65 e-rude 33hp: HALF SPEED @ full throttle

Your motor doesn't have a stator. It has a magnet in the flywheel, two coils, two condensors and a set of points. My bet is on a bad coil or worn/misadjusted points.

You will have to pull the flywheel to get at all of this stuff. Make sure you use a correct, harmonic type puller! Do not use a gear puller, because you may end up breaking the flywheel, if you do!



???

Re: '65 e-rude 33hp: HALF SPEED @ full throttle

jay_merrill said:

This is OK as a basic test, but it will not give you a complete indication of spark quality. When a plug is installed in the cylinder and compressed fuel/air mixture is involved, the resistance involved is higher. This is why the gap set on an adjustable spark tester is so much wider than on an actual sparkplug.???

Click to expand...

He was asking pretty basic. Ended up they can't even remove the plugs!

Re: '65 e-rude 33hp: HALF SPEED @ full throttle

jay_merrill said:

Your motor doesn't have a stator. It has a magnet in the flywheel, two coils, two condensors and a set of points. My bet is on a bad coil or worn/misadjusted points.

You will have to pull the flywheel to get at all of this stuff. Make sure you use a correct, harmonic type puller! Do not use a gear puller, because you may end up breaking the flywheel, if you do!



???

Click to expand...

ya i was looking in my motor repair manual and it shows them using some test machine that tests the coils, condensors, breaker points..... i obviousely don't have this machine, don't even know what it really is. THAT BEING SAID; is my only option [besides buying new parts and replacing] to take it into a mechanic??

Re: '65 e-rude 33hp: HALF SPEED @ full throttle

adamsnez2 said:

ya i was looking in my motor repair manual and it shows them using some test machine that tests the coils, condensors, breaker points..... i obviousely don't have this machine, don't even know what it really is. THAT BEING SAID; is my only option [besides buying new parts and replacing] to take it into a mechanic??

Click to expand...

My manual shows the "test equipment" as well. I doubt anyone has the old testers they used back then. I just had a similar issue with my '71 18 hp and although I put all new components, points, condensers, and coils in it I had one of the wires set a little high and the flywheel hit it and shorted out the condenser on that cylinder.

Being it is a '65 unit I'd check all the stuff under the flywheel. For the price replacing every thing is not too bad. Just make sure you have the wires placed back in correctly so the flywheel does not hit them!

Good stuff here:
http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=299680

Not the same as yours, but similar and the principle is the same.

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=294072

Re: '65 e-rude 33hp: HALF SPEED @ full throttle

6 years ago i had the coils points and condensers replaced @ the mechanics. boat has ran less than 10hours since then.

1) is it necessary i replace ALL these parts?
for my situation of a dead cylinder, which parts should i replace in your opinion [keeping in mind they are basically ALL new, something just died out here....]

2) i see the magneto system is basically a mirror of itself, 2 of everything,....
how do you know which side/parts controls which piston?


i want to replace as little as possible, if I'm doing this myself, for the first time.. it is nice to just get in and SEE first without doing TOO MUCH, get a visual of my enemy...
not looking to set up / replace the ENTIRE magneto system, seems over my head for the first shot.


Thanks for help :redface:

Re: '65 e-rude 33hp: HALF SPEED @ full throttle

adamsnez2 said:

6 years ago i had the coils points and condensers replaced @ the mechanics. boat has ran less than 10hours since then.

1) is it necessary i replace ALL these parts?
i want to replace as little as possible, if I'm doing this myself, for the first time.. it is nice to just get in and SEE first without doing TOO MUCH, get a visual of my enemy...
not looking to set up / replace the ENTIRE magneto system, seems over my head for the first shot.


Thanks for help :redface:

Click to expand...

I'd agree with that. You'll need to figure what is the culprit and go that way. First thing to check will be the point gap then go from there.

If you have a good multi tester it helps.

These are real expensive, but you can get the same results with a cheaper unit.

http://assets.fluke.com/appnotes/electricalpower/B0271b_u.pdf

Re: '65 e-rude 33hp: HALF SPEED @ full throttle

adamsnez2 said:

Jay, you were right.


4) what brand/model have you guys found work best in these O/Bs? i know they are gapped .03

Click to expand...

Use champions in it. I think that might be JC4 i got rid of my 71 25hp this year and had not really messed with it in over 2 years so i cant remember. My 2 other boats 81 60hp and 90 150hp take ql77jc4 i think maybe thats the wrong ending, i know there ql77???. Others will chime in who have bought some recently or looked at theirs or have this memorized without looking at the plug every 6 months like me.

And another think make sure that is a .030 gap, you might suffer if you gap at .3 inches.

Re: '65 e-rude 33hp: HALF SPEED @ full throttle

.03 Correct.

they are J4C plugs. original manuals state J4J, which are discontinued.

J4C replaced J4J

Re: '65 e-rude 33hp: HALF SPEED @ full throttle

brought it back from the cabin this week, gonna try and look at this thing see if i get anywhere.

refer to attachment below, but through a couple holes in the upper gearbase and exhaust outlet, there is oil coming out [pics taken after it has sat for a week, so i don't recall it came out INSTANTLY after we loaded it back onto trailer]. It's as black as black can be.
IS THIS STILL OK FOR THE MOTOR? [aka: non-damaging, i think this is just due to improperly tuned carbs, too rich?]

WHAT IS THE ACTUAL CAUSE OF PURE BLACK OIL to be coming out?

-----------------
random question to help me know what is what: let me know if i have these terms correct....
does the "exhaust housing" sit atop the "lower unit"
does the "lower end/unit" consist of an "upper and lower gear case? [lower being the skeg itself]"

so from top down im thinking it sits:
EXHAUST HOUSING/UPPERGEARCASE/LOWER GEARCASE (skeg)

Re: '65 e-rude 33hp: HALF SPEED @ full throttle

TTT?
the depths of page7!! you guys work fast.

Re: '65 e-rude 33hp: HALF SPEED @ full throttle

The black oil is the unburned fuel/oil mix coming out of the exhaust. Normal for a two-stroke. You will get more coming out since you are only running on one cylinder, since half is not getting burned at all.