Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

Oh no, more problems now, troubleshooting within this forum why my engine stalls under load led me to clean & rebuild carbs (carbs looked good apart except for the high speed orifices that were found very loose), now it?s not running as smoothly in lower speeds as it was before, although initially it appeared stronger/more responsive at higher rpm's in neutral so I thought that was it, but it still stalls under load when you approach 1000 rpm's. I assumed it was not running right due to the lean/rich adjustment so I have been trying to get that right, which I thought I got it running a little better in idle, but last night went back to boat to work on it some more and now find what looks to me like some mild moisture on the carbs butterfly (throttle valve) and milky fuel on the throat of the carbs (never had that before carb rebuild & fuel is good) and a couple of the carbs are leaving fuel on the back side of the air cover? Is this water from somewhere or from running too lean or now sucking in air (I cut one tie wrap off the fuel pump when I thought for a second about pulling it off to have it tested but changed my mind and forgot to put another tie wrap on, will do next time)???

I also tried a couple of new things such as pushing in the choke to see if it would run better in idle or under load and engine dies on each, also placed my hand over each carb very briefly and very good suction as fuel comes out, that?s where I noticed the mild milky substance. I checked to see if the carb throats opened all the way at 90 deg., they are close, I would say about 80 deg., however, they do not really begin to open until the shifter is about 75% moved forward? The motor will start every time no problem and idle ok, but now even when I rev it up a bit in neutral it does not sound right, I am growing very concerned. I have also recently noticed every few seconds a burst of water shooting out the exhaust? Lastly, I definitely noticed the starboard side of motor is much hotter than the port side, but when I disco the temp sensors on each side while under load it has no effect so I very briefly pulled spark plug off on port side while under load, seemed to have no effect on engine performance, however I did hear taping and felt the electricity on the coil wire arcing to the plug, also did this on starboard side and noticed engine ran weaker and coil arc to plug was stronger than starboard side, this leads me to think maybe its not the link and sync and I should be looking at ignition, such as power pack, timer base, coils and/or stator.

Please let me know what you guys would do...listed below is some history of what I have done so far on my 1994 Johnson Ocean Runner 225:

1. Decarbed engine and added new fuel filters and plugs,
2. Ran clean fuel direct to fuel pump on motor,
3. Pumped fuel ball under load and its tight, made no difference,
4. Compression Check ok (all between 90-100),
5. Checked spark on each cylinder (V6) ok, also checked at night, no arcs,
6. Timing checked ok,
7. Checked it?s not the shift interrupter,
8. Replaced fuel pulse limiter (strange how the engine then failed under load at higher rpms 2800, then failed under load at lower rpms 1000 after carb rebuild?),
9. Cleaned & rebuilt all carburetors,
10. I do hear the fuel pump click every 5-10 seconds, heard it should be more like 20-30 seconds, so still not sure if I should pull & bring to shop to test. Pump ball and she stays pretty hard, both in neutral & under load.

Thanks,
Pete

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

Check the reed valves?

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

Interesting, will inspect later if not raining outside. Does anyone know if some of the Reed Valves are bad if that would keep my rpm's down or create milky fuel or if that is a seperate problem (carbs spitting) maybe from me over reving the engine as a result me working on my low rpm problem??? I still think I have an issue because the Starboard side is running hotter than the port side, what is best way to check this, spark gap tool? I will also inspect the fuel again to make sure its still good or if that is now another problem. Eeeee, what else!

Thanks,
Pete

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

Theres an air leak on the fuel side, thats causing the pump to cycle faster to compensate, that causes excess oil into the mix.
You probably see that oil in the carbs.

Make sure you use the proper tie wrap, not any tie wrap, get them from the dealer or the new style clamps, squeeze type.

Get the manual if you don't have it yet, sounds like you need it.
www.outboardbooks.com

Do a link and sync, those carb butterfly's have to be at 90 deg WOT, you can't guess at the setup , do it by the book.

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

Ok thank you, I will check all hoses on output side of the fuel pump, but I am not noticing any oil, just milky gas. Although, when I took the carbs out to rebuild them, the bottom long bolts were covered in oil, thought that was odd. Also, do you think the fuel pump could be the culprit if the bulb pretty much stays firm after pumping and pumping has no effect on load performance. Also, could the air leak cause the carb to spit a little bit or is that more likely the Reed Valves? What do you think about the starboard head being much hotter than the port side?

Thanks,
Pete

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

I gotta clear some things up im my mind...

1. Milky gas. where? If you are talking about the opening to the carb throats, it comes from the high humidity and the reduced air pressure at that point. I see it on my engine and ignore it.

2. Spitting gas from carbs. It is unclear. Are you seeing this? Are you seeing gas mist spitting out the front of the carbs?
If so, you have a leak at the reeds. Either a bad reed(s), or in my experience, the gasket that seals the reed block to the intake. It has a tendency to travel or move...I will attach a picture.

I think it is a bit of a design flaw....

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

Thanks so much for responding. The milky gas was sitting on the carb in front of throat (after I placed my hand over the carb while it was running it came out) but on at least one of the throats I saw a little water moisture. Yes, it was hot and humid yesterday.

After carb rebuild, I saw and heard a very little gas occassionally spit out of only one of the carbs (top port side), but yesterday, I noticed the inside of the air cover was wet from what looked to be 3 of the carbs (from the carb outline on the foam, it was wet all around and smelt of gas), however, I did not actually see it come out. If Reeds are bad, could that cause low rpms or is that another problem?

What do you think about the water comming out the exhaust ports/holes every few seconds, decent amount, mostly on the port side?

Thanks,
Pete

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

CoastalPete said:

Thanks so much for responding. The milky gas was sitting on the carb in front of throat (after I placed my hand over the carb while it was running it came out) but on at least one of the throats I saw a little water moisture. Yes, it was hot and humid yesterday.

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If you choke it while running with your hand/fingers, that milky gas will always form, or it always does for me. I am in humid Florida. Nothing to worry about.

After carb rebuild, I saw and heard a very little gas occassionally spit out of only one of the carbs (top port side), but yesterday, I noticed the inside of the air cover was wet from what looked to be 3 of the carbs (from the carb outline on the foam, it was wet all around and smelt of gas), however, I did not actually see it come out. If Reeds are bad, could that cause low rpms or is that another problem?

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That carb is for #1 cylinder...the top port carb. Notice it is also the highest carb on the front of the engine...corresponds with the highest cylinder in the block...#1. If you have the carb floats a little high...you may be a bit rich, causing the spitting back. Leaking reeds will cause obvious spitting out (like my pic), and they will cause a condition where each cylinder get less of a fuel charge when the piston (on it's downward stroke) passes the intake port opening in the cylinder wall. The leaking reed does not allow the crankcase pressure to build on the piston downstroke, and therefore the cylinder doesn't get that shot of gas/air when it needs it. Low power, lean running...just plain bad. But it would be real obvious....kinda like raining out the front of the carb, I would think. Look from the side very carefully when running to see if it is spitting back. Put a light cloth or napkin in front of the carb, and see if it blows the napkin back....But, reeds are a big job. Not good to tear into it until you are sure.

What do you think about the water comming out the exhaust ports/holes every few seconds, decent amount, mostly on the port side?

Click to expand...

Got no thoughts on that yet.

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

Ok thanks again so much for responding. I will try to get to boat tonight to check reeds and double check fuel. I do remember a few years back that I noticed a little water comming out exhaust so I called Johnson and they said that is normal, but now I think its a more and more noticiable on the port side?

I also think I have an ignition issue because the Starboard side is running hotter than the port side & I pulled plug while under load and port side had little effect and less arc than starboard side (and we ruled out the shift interuptor & the sync would I think effect all cylinders so I dont think its that, although do need to run through that too), thinking maybe a bad power pack, timer base, stator or coils, but thinking that if its on only one side, it might be the power pack or timer base (stator should effect all cylinders and unlikly 3 coils could fail at same time on one side)? What is best way to check this, spark gap tool, how shouild I approach it, just do 7/16 spark test one at a time while in idle? If only 1 or 2 cylinders bad then likely coil, if all 3 on one side are bad then test power pack, I have a volt meter but understand I need an adapter, where can I find this at today an auto part store or marina?

Thanks for all the help guys,
Pete

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

Spark gap jump test is not done while running.

All plugs out, spark test tool installed on #1 spark plug wire, adjusted for 7/16", and the other side to ground, crank engine with starter. Be careful not to have any arcing from the other plug wires, as fuel mix may spray out the plug holes, and cause a fire. Repeat for all six cyls.

The stator has two charge coils. If only one charge coil is bad, it can affect the associated bank. So, yes, a bad stator can affect only one bank.

You cannot get a DVA adapter at auto parts stores. Search DVA on this site and see the circuit you can build yourself, or search ESI DVA Marine on Google to find a complete meter that does DVA measurements. EBay also.

This is a 6 cyl looper, so each cylinder has it's own ignition coil. Two cyls cannot be affected by a single coil on this engine.

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

REPORTING Back on LINK & SYNC:

I tried doing the link & snyc last night and could not get past the timing section and the engine now idling terible and sometimes conks out. My gun says its 4deg BTDC, can someone confirm the location of the #1 cylinder, could not find in OEM service manuel, figured it was the top starboard side since that one matched the flywheel #1 for TDC. Tried adjusting the timing for 18 deg BTDC, but my light still says its 4 deg??? First thought maybe my old automotive inductive timing light was bad but adjusting the timing made no improvement, engine still idling rough??? The marina mechanic who looked at the motor in the beginining (before he balled because they do not work on Johnsons) said the timing was right on the money at 18deg BTDC and I believe it because before I started adjusting the link & sync the motor ran & sounded great in idle, just not under load. I did find the cam roller broken in pieces and will replace. I will do a 7/16" spark test & test power pack once I receive the tools I ordered. Does this sound like a bad stator and also, where are the 2 coil chargers located, I heard this could be a cause if one bank has lower values but could not locate anywhere?

Prior to doing the link & sync I adjusted lean/rich on carbs, checked the reeds and checked again the gas (dumped fuel seperator and was clean but after leaving the container open in the humid air for several hours the gas turned cloudy and water was on bottom), spark and compression and all looks good. I think the gas occasionally spitting out is a result of the floats adjusted a tiny bit higher than level, will re-adjust level next time.

HELP ME PLEASE!!!
Thanks,
Pete

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

Link and sync is a specific series of adjustments that must be done per the OEM service manual. Of all the variables on these outboards, I think the link and sync is the most sensitive and must be done exactly right. You would be shocked at how well the engine will run if the link and sync is done perfectly.

So, a couple of points in your post have me worried...location of #1 is always top starboard cyl, and is the highest cyl in the block.
The fact that you are trying to set the 18* timing and are seeing 4* indicates that you are not correct in your methods. The 18* timing is set at 4500 rpm or higher....in the water under load. Or use the Joe Reeves method, which gets it in the ballpark, but in my opinion, must still be checked at 4500 under way. This is a whole 'nother discussion. Don't get side-tracked.

The lean/rich carb setting will only affect idle...but there is so much variation in the carb design from 1990 thru 1996...I wonder about your carbs. I could be VERY wrong, but I would swear that you should have 3 fixed jets, and NO adjusting screws...This is very troubling to me.

I mentioned the charge coils. They are part of the stator, and provide voltage to the pack, which eventually gets switched out to the ignition coils.....They cannot be individually serviced. Gotta get a new stator if that's the problem.

Where are you located?

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

daselbee said:

So, a couple of points in your post have me worried...location of #1 is always top starboard cyl, and is the highest cyl in the block. The fact that you are trying to set the 18* timing and are seeing 4* indicates that you are not correct in your methods. The 18* timing is set at 4500 rpm or higher....in the water under load. Or use the Joe Reeves method, which gets it in the ballpark, but in my opinion, must still be checked at 4500 under way. This is a whole 'nother discussion. Don't get side-tracked.

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Ok, I did read that but engine conks in gear under load so how do you check timing then (makes me wonder how the marina mechanic checked it)? The timing was checked in idle, 800 RPM's, could it be that off (4deg vs. 18deg)? What would throw the timing off, a bad stator?

daselbee said:

The lean/rich carb setting will only affect idle...but there is so much variation in the carb design from 1990 thru 1996...I wonder about your carbs. I could be VERY wrong, but I would swear that you should have 3 fixed jets, and NO adjusting screws...This is very troubling to me.

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My motor is a 1994 Johnson Ocean Runner 225 V6 (700 hours), 2 are fixed and 1 is adjustable, per the Johnson Manual.

daselbee said:

I mentioned the charge coils. They are part of the stator, and provide voltage to the pack, which eventually gets switched out to the ignition coils.....They cannot be individually serviced. Gotta get a new stator if that's the problem.

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Is the only way to test stator to remove the flywheel or can you get to the wires without pulling flywheel.

daselbee said:

Where are you located?

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I am located in Brick, NJ, how about you, do you know of any good Johnson mechanics in this area? Need help, motor is running worse now that I rebuilt carbs and tried to do the link & sync. I followed the link & sync in detail, per the manual, one step at a time, the only short cut I took was I did not disconnect the shifter cable from the shifter. Obviously, I got hung up on the timer step and was unable to complete the next and last Idle step. What do you recommend, repeat link & sync and do timing per another method (but adjusting the timing screw did absolutly nothing to improve engine idle)?

Thanks,
Pete

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

NJ...well that rules out coming over to help you. I am in FL.

So, you have to check timing at 4500...so, if it conks out, you gotta get that fixed first. If the WOT timing is off it will not affect your running it at idle, so get it repaired so that it will not conk out first.

The stator will not cause the timing to be out of adjustment. The timer base will have an affect. Let's not get side tracked tho.

The carb idle adjustment screw....should be set at about 5 turns out for starters. Since you have already messed with these, I would put them all back to 5 turns out and leave them alone until almost last.

You can remove the four powerpack mounting screws, and gently lift the pack to the rear, and hang it off the back of the engine. It will run that way for testing. BE SURE TO HOOK UP THE PACK GROUND to a good engine ground before trying any testing. Be sure you don't hang any wires in the turning flywheel. With the pack set back, you can get to all the stator wires if required.

However, if you have above 150 volts as measured with a DVA meter at the primary of each ignition coil, the charge coils on the stator are good. Measure either at cranking speed, or at idle. Will be higher at idle.

You really should not have messed with the WOT timing screw. Did you make note of the original setting so you can put it back where it was? I am wondering which screw you turned. Please describe exactly which one it was that you turned to adjust the timing...there are two.

OK...recap. Do a compression test on all cyls. Post back the results in number form... 1=110, 2=107, etc...not that "compression was OK."

Get your DVA meter out. Measure the voltage on each coil primary at cranking speed. Should be 150 or higher. Note any discrepancy. Post.

Set the carb idle screws back at 5 turns out. Are you sure you cleaned the carbs properly? Who did the carb job? If you sprayed thru the throats with carb cleaner...no dice. Gotta take them off and thoroughly disassemble, clean all jets and passages. The side plates must be removed and clean in the labyrinth passages there. Also, there is a side plate on the throttle body that should be removed, cleaning under there as well.

You have to make absolutely sure you don't assemble the carb body on the throttle plate with that spaghetti gasket out of place. It can pop out of it's groove, get crushed, and you will have an air leak.

I haven't read where you say if you are using the VRO mixing fuel pump, or if you are pre-mixing your gas.

One other possibility...the symptoms could indicate that the timing magnet ring around the HUB of the flywheel may be loose. When you are using your timing light, if the timing seems to jump around, possible loose timing magnet.

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

Going down to the shop now to replace a piston....you would not believe the boner I did two days ago....
This is a first for me. I am going to try to replace the piston without splitting the crankcase. Reach in the front of the crankcase, remove rod bolts, RandR piston, and here is the iffy part....try to get the rod cap aligned and torqued properly when putting it back together.

I bet I throw that rod later....oh well.

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

daselbee said:

So, you have to check timing at 4500...so, if it conks out, you gotta get that fixed first. If the WOT timing is off it will not affect your running it at idle, so get it repaired so that it will not conk out first.

Click to expand...

It does run poorly at idle and now conks out as soon as I shift it under load, so I guess I will redue the link & sync, does it really matter if I disco the shifter?

daselbee said:

The stator will not cause the timing to be out of adjustment. The timer base will have an affect. Let's not get side tracked tho.

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Ok but why would the timing be off by 14 deg., and the timing adjustment screw, the one with the rubber stopper that the timer base touches (WOT I believe) have no effect on improving the timing?

daselbee said:

The carb idle adjustment screw....should be set at about 5 turns out for starters. Since you have already messed with these, I would put them all back to 5 turns out and leave them alone until almost last.

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Manual says to tighten screws and back them out 2.5 turns & adjust, which I did and marked them, then adjusted 1/4 turn more counterclockwise (more to lean) as it was a bit rough and smoking a bit more than normal (too rich I think), after the two 1/8 turns, seamed to idle and rev up in nuetral fine so I moved on to the link & sync. After link & sync, does not run so good in idle?

daselbee said:

You really should not have messed with the WOT timing screw. Did you make note of the original setting so you can put it back where it was? I am wondering which screw you turned. Please describe exactly which one it was that you turned to adjust the timing...there are two.

Click to expand...

The timing adjustment is 2nd to last step (idle is last) in the link & sync, so when the timing was read as 4deg BTDC & adjusted to see if I could get it closer to 18deg., and yes, I marked and counted the number of turns on the screw, after the adjustement failed to make any improvement, I turned the screw back to where it was and packed it in for the night (11pm anyway).

daselbee said:

OK...recap. Do a compression test on all cyls. Post back the results in number form... 1=110, 2=107, etc...not that "compression was OK."

Click to expand...

Compression results from last night were @ 1= 91, 3= 96, 5= 94 and 2= 87, 4=90 and 6=not tested but previously it was around 90 (need adapter, not enough room for new tester).

daselbee said:

Set the carb idle screws back at 5 turns out. Are you sure you cleaned the carbs properly? Who did the carb job? If you sprayed thru the throats with carb cleaner...no dice. Gotta take them off and thoroughly disassemble, clean all jets and passages. The side plates must be removed and clean in the labyrinth passages there. Also, there is a side plate on the throttle body that should be removed, cleaning under there as well.

You have to make absolutely sure you don't assemble the carb body on the throttle plate with that spaghetti gasket out of place. It can pop out of it's groove, get crushed, and you will have an air leak.

Click to expand...

I took all 6 carbs off and disasembled, cleand with carb cleaner & compressed air and put back together with new Johnson kits. The carbs were previously done about 6 years ago and looked great, except for the fixed high speed orfices which were loose. I double checked all gaskets and was very carefull, feel confident as I took my time. Again, manual says start with 2.5 turns and turn in 1/8 increments, do you really think I can go to 5 turns, affraid it might run too lean and not provide enough oil.

daselbee said:

I haven't read where you say if you are using the VRO mixing fuel pump, or if you are pre-mixing your gas.

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I have a VRO2 fuel/oil pump, which I believe is working...was my original hunch that the fuel pump was bad but from readings within this post, believe it is working...pumping bulb has no effect and stays fairly firm.

daselbee said:

One other possibility...the symptoms could indicate that the timing magnet ring around the HUB of the flywheel may be loose. When you are using your timing light, if the timing seems to jump around, possible loose timing magnet.

Click to expand...

Are you refering to the stator, yes, I inspected under the flywheel and all looks good, all spaces are filled, nothing looks loose or damaged and I did not find any broken parts, etc...Timing stayed pretty stable when I first checked it BUT, after I adjusted the timing screw and checked with the light, it did jump between 4deg and 12deg (I started my 1st adjustment by turning the timing screw 8 times, which = 1deg per turn, so I expected it at 12deg.), but it quickly stopped jumping and settled back at 4deg., of course that was when I had the motor in idle. Oh, did I mention the boat is in the water in my slip so testing timing at 4500rpms under load will be a challange unless I take it for a ride which cannot happen until it stops conking out.

Thanks for all your input, I will test the stator, power pack, etc. and post the results on saturday night or sunday afternoon, depending when the tools arrive.

If anyone else has any ideas, please share them, thanks, Pete

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

Pete, you're getting expert help from Dasselbee, don't invite 3rd party opinions, just follow his directions or you'll get yourself tangled up.

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

Ok, I agree, very happy with his help, thanks, Pete

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

I am afraid you are missing the point on some very key issues.

WOT timing. Fughettaboudit. You will never get the timing to 18 degrees at idle. It has to be set at 4500rpm. If you get the root of the problem fixed, it will not conk out on you as you throttle up, and then you will be able to set it. (There IS another way, but I would not feel good about suggesting it here and now.) Later maybe. For now, concentrate on getting it to run, with good proper spark. It is futile to try to measure the WOT timing when at idle. As I said, WOT timing will not affect you getting it fixed, and running.

Who said disconnect the shifter?

The timing ring referred to is part of the flywheel. It is around the center hub. You cannot see it unless you take the flywheel off. Don't do that yet. Wait to see if the timing is jumping around while at idle. I am speaking only of the 4* ATDC idle timing. Another thing you could do while waiting for tools, is put the timiing light on each plug lead one at a time. Look into the light, and try to detect if the light flashes erratically. It should be smooth steady flashing. If erratic, you have an ignition problem. Note which cylinders if you find any erratic ones.

Get the spark tested, and get those primary voltages off each coil.

That's what I would do first.

Your carbs are different from mine. Sorry to suggest 5 turns when your manual says 2.5 turns. Go with the manual.

Re: Milky fuel & moisture in newly rebuilt carbs, Johnson still fails under load

Plastic carbs? I am on sideline watching with interest as i had the same issues. My bowls were warped. Getting them flat helped a lot.

I will be quiet now:redface:
dave