Marine plywood vs regular plywood question

smartwork

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We need to rebuild our motor cover for our Bayliner Capri. If the plywood is being sealed with glass and resin, what is the advantage of using marine plywood? Also, what is the actual difference between marine plywood and pressure treated? Are there weight differences between all types?

Before we rebuild it, is anyone aware of a vendor who sells the frame of the motor cover? We can still apply the covering we have, but the frame has rotted a bit.

Thanks!
 

TheKatsass

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Re: Marine plywood vs regular plywood question

Marine plywood has a layer of mohagany on the surface, is usually thicker, has a smoother surface, and a different glue/bonding agent. It is usually heavier 5/8" vs 5/8". Wood is porous and will need to be sealed completely or will rot from the inside out, marine plywood or not, I'm in the process and am staining it, varathaning and recovering. In 20 years it might rot out again and need rebuilt, but by that time, everything else will need rebuilt too.

Good luck.
 

bigredinohio

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Re: Marine plywood vs regular plywood question

Not 100% sure but I don't think you can fiberglass pressure treated wood.
 

ondarvr

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Re: Marine plywood vs regular plywood question

Marine ply comes in almost any thickness and can be made from a variety of different woods, the type just depends on how you plan to use it. The biggest difference is good marine ply (there are many grades) should have no voids and use a good water resistant glue.

Treated ply can be glassed. it just needs to be dry first.

Nobody sells much of anything for old boats, you just get to rebuild whatever rots yourself, or have somebody else make it for you.
 

smartwork

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Re: Marine plywood vs regular plywood question

Thanks for the info, everyone. Regarding the different grades, how is that graded? Is it like regular ply A, B, BC, etc., or do they use different criteria? Which grade do you think I need for the motor cover (which is all covered with a cushion on top). It appears to be about 1/2" and not much of it either. A sheet of 4x8 would even be too much. By the way... is it sold in 4x8 like regular ply?
 

sprintst

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Re: Marine plywood vs regular plywood question

I'm going to use 5/8 exterior ply good one side plywood. I'll glass and epoxy it so that it is totally sealed. It shouln't see much water but who knows what will seep through the upholstery.
 

osborn159

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Re: Marine plywood vs regular plywood question

if it where mine i proly would use acx or bcx exterior grade the marine ply is nice but once you seal all sides w/ resin/cloth and paint or gelcoat it should hold up as well, if you want to stain and seal, well marine does look much nicer finished
 

smarks

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Re: Marine plywood vs regular plywood question

I had to replace/rebuild the back bench seat platform on my rig. I used the old rotten one as a template and used 1/2" pressure treated with pressure treated 2x2's as supports. I put 3 coats of resin on it and it turned out great.
The platform that was there originally was just bear wood so it rotted from the floor up.
With the resin it should last for awile.
Regards
Steve
 

erikgreen

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Re: Marine plywood vs regular plywood question

Marine plywood has a layer of mohagany on the surface, is usually thicker, has a smoother surface, and a different glue/bonding agent. It is usually heavier 5/8" vs 5/8". Wood is porous and will need to be sealed completely or will rot from the inside out, marine plywood or not, I'm in the process and am staining it, varathaning and recovering. In 20 years it might rot out again and need rebuilt, but by that time, everything else will need rebuilt too.

Good luck.


Not that I'm trying to rip into anyone here, but I felt like I needed to post a correction or two.

First, Marine ply can be any species of wood, not just mahogany. Usually it's made from a good grade of one of the more rot resistant species, like mahogany, okoume, meranti, or others. Note that the rot resistance of marine ply comes from the species of wood it's made from, not from any special "anti-rot" treatment.

It's usually somewhat lighter than a corresponding piece of plywood made from pine, fir, etc but that varies by species. Some are heavier than others.

Mostly marine grade ply is specified as marine grade by the manufacturer.. that means it's sanded both sides, has no voids, and meets a number of other standards specified by Lloyds of London for boat construction (not kidding). Real marine ply can be used to build boats that also can get Lloyds certified.

The glue used for marine ply is usually very similar if not identical to exterior plywood glue... a phenolic resin that's cured under pressure and heat, and has some similarities to epoxy.

Marine ply tends to not warp in any dimension when compared to exterior grade for a number of reasons, most of them related to the number and orientation of plies. Being a composite wood product, plywood's strength is directly related to the number of layers in it and the orientation of fibers in the layers. Marine ply has more, sometimes twice as many plies, as the same thickness of exterior grade.

Last, the marine ply has equal thickness plies. Cheaper plywood sometimes uses a "clear" or knot free veneer for the outside ply for looks. This is acceptable for mechanically fastened wood, but when you glue to the surface with epoxy or other resin the thinner veneer layer means that joint is more likely to tear free of the rest of the wood.

Obviously marine ply is a good, high quality choice for boat building, and if the marine architect for your boat has taken its strengths into account and specified its use, your boat can be lighter and stronger than a boat using exterior grade or cheaper.

Most mass-produced boats with plywood structure use exterior grade, and due to the age of most of the boats repaired by folks here, the original plywood used was not very high quality, so generally replacement with exterior grade is not only acceptable but improves the boat over its factory new condition.

Marine ply is always a good choice for materials if money is no object.. but then, there aren't too many people rebuilding old boats here for whom money is no object, right?

If you're going to look at using a given type of plywood, here's what to look for:

* Exterior grade glue (may not be exterior grade plywood - that's a trade organization standard.. but it must have waterproof glue). Do a google search on "wood boil test" to find out how to check a piece of ply.

* Lots of plies - the more layers, the stronger the wood

* Minimal knots - each knot forms a weak spot because the fibers in the wood go "around" the center of the knot. Usually there's also a bubble of some kind in the knot which can permit water to collect. If it freezes, the water can delaminate the wood and whatever is around it.

* No voids if possible - related to knots.. gaps in one of the veneers can form a one veneer thick hole in the wood, as seen from the edge. This is weak and provides a spot for water to gather.

* Full thickness surface plies - as mentioned above, a paper thin veneer looks good, but it isn't strong to glue to

My personal favorite for boat work is Arauco ply, which is an exterior grade plantation grown plywood from South America. It's about $25 a sheet for 1/2" and has almost no voids. It's also AC or AB sanded.


Erik
 

smartwork

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Re: Marine plywood vs regular plywood question

Wow - Erik! That's some awesome and thorough information. Thanks for taking the time to post all that helpful content. I'll investigate my options here at suppliers outside of the big box stores and see what I come up with.

As for the glass and resin for coating it (which for us is a small rebuild), do most people get that at a marine store or do you find that also at places like auto shops?
 

osborn159

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Re: Marine plywood vs regular plywood question

check your phonebook or online for fiberglass supplies, if none are nearby you can get general purpose polyester resin from a few auto parts stores, these require sanding between layers and add much work, look or ask for unwaxed polyester resin, or you can $pend 2-3 times the money and get marine epoxy.
 

fishrdan

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Re: Marine plywood vs regular plywood question

Not that I'm trying to rip into anyone here, but I felt like I needed to post a correction or two.

Same here, I'll just add to what Erik has.

There are many different types of marine plywood, and you can't just bundle them into a group and call them marine plywood. Marine plywood can also be a lesser quality AB, AC, etc. plywood that is chemically treated. Aluminum boats use "aluminum safe" CCA treated plywood specifically made for marine use. This plywood does not share the same characteristics of being void free as normal "marine" plywood does, but it's still a marine plywood. There are also inexpensive (as far as marine plywood goes) douglas fir marine plywoods, it's about 2X the price of AB exterior plywood though.

Unless it's Lloyds of London certified, don't think that marine plywood will be void free. I like to think of it as virtually void free.

I looked at Arauco plywood when doing my boat and the only thing that kept me away from it is that the raditarian (sp) pine used to make the plywood is not very rot resistant. If it's sealed up well with epoxy/poly resin you shouldn't have a problem, but be aware that there are better plywoods available, as far as rot resistance goes. If it wasn't for the rot factor, I would have use Arauco plywood.
 

coolbikeguy

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Re: Marine plywood vs regular plywood question

Wow - Erik! That's some awesome and thorough information. Thanks for taking the time to post all that helpful content. I'll investigate my options here at suppliers outside of the big box stores and see what I come up with.

As for the glass and resin for coating it (which for us is a small rebuild), do most people get that at a marine store or do you find that also at places like auto shops?


uscomposites.com
 

erikgreen

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Re: Marine plywood vs regular plywood question

Same here, I'll just add to what Erik has.

There are many different types of marine plywood, and you can't just bundle them into a group and call them marine plywood. Marine plywood can also be a lesser quality AB, AC, etc. plywood that is chemically treated. Aluminum boats use "aluminum safe" CCA treated plywood specifically made for marine use. This plywood does not share the same characteristics of being void free as normal "marine" plywood does, but it's still a marine plywood. There are also inexpensive (as far as marine plywood goes) douglas fir marine plywoods, it's about 2X the price of AB exterior plywood though.

Unless it's Lloyds of London certified, don't think that marine plywood will be void free. I like to think of it as virtually void free.

I looked at Arauco plywood when doing my boat and the only thing that kept me away from it is that the raditarian (sp) pine used to make the plywood is not very rot resistant. If it's sealed up well with epoxy/poly resin you shouldn't have a problem, but be aware that there are better plywoods available, as far as rot resistance goes. If it wasn't for the rot factor, I would have use Arauco plywood.


Well, the name "Marine plywood" is too generic to make into a trademark or otherwise limit its application, but with few exceptions the "real" name applies to Lloyd's class certified boat building plywood only.

The stuff you describe that's treated, or of lesser finish, isn't actually marine ply, it's some other stuff that's having the word "marine" put on it to jack up the price. Kinda like a boat store buying a pallet of PT ply with the newer copper anti-rot and labeling it "marine ply" to sell it.

The rot resistance of Arauco isn't that bad... consider that balsa was and is commonly used in panel cores and it rots more readily than pine. As with many other woods in a boat, it won't rot if it's dry, and if it gets wet it's going to need replacement work even if it's not rotting - wet with freezing temps means delamination, further leaks, extra weight, etc.

Erik
 

ondarvr

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Re: Marine plywood vs regular plywood question

The treated ply for marine use can be called a few different things, "boat panels" is one.

Its a good grade of Kiln dried ply that has the old treatment to help prevent rot, I use it when ever I can, the cost isnt that bad, but shipping can be. Most of the boat builders I work with use a product of this type.
 

fishrdan

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Re: Marine plywood vs regular plywood question

Well, the name "Marine plywood" is too generic to make into a trademark or otherwise limit its application, but with few exceptions the "real" name applies to Lloyd's class certified boat building plywood only.

The stuff you describe that's treated, or of lesser finish, isn't actually marine ply, it's some other stuff that's having the word "marine" put on it to jack up the price. Kinda like a boat store buying a pallet of PT ply with the newer copper anti-rot and labeling it "marine ply" to sell it.

The rot resistance of Arauco isn't that bad... consider that balsa was and is commonly used in panel cores and it rots more readily than pine. As with many other woods in a boat, it won't rot if it's dry, and if it gets wet it's going to need replacement work even if it's not rotting - wet with freezing temps means delamination, further leaks, extra weight, etc.

Erik

Yup, go into a lumber yard, supplier for building aluminum boats and supplier for building wood boats and they will probably have 3 different plywoods all called "marine" plywood. I just posted about the treated and fir plywood so others would know that if you ask for marine plywood, you could get different things.

The marine treated plywood isn't the run of the mill "green" treated wood, it's the old style treating that was outlawed (EPA?) and can only be used for specific applications now, commercial, marine. You can't run down to Lowes and pick up a couple sheets.

Arauco ply has many good characteristics for a boat, I was just pointing out that it's not as rot resistant as other "marine" plywoods. Rot resistance is about the only down fall I see of Arauco plywood, but for the cost savings, it might be worth it.
 

smartwork

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Re: Marine plywood vs regular plywood question

With all the diverse woods, which do you think is adequate - but not over-kill - for my task which is simply rebuilding a somewhat standard looking motor cover that is about only about 12" tall (3 sides) x 30" wide with the cushion on the top?
 

erikgreen

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Re: Marine plywood vs regular plywood question

You know, it almost doesn't matter.. :)

The thing is, if the motor cover fails, the worst that can generally happen is that you hear a loud crunch and it develops a big crack. Unless it failed totally and someone dropped onto the motor, it's no big deal.

Motor covers ("doghouses") are a great first boat project because you can experiment with them and not impact safety....

Erik
 

smartwork

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Re: Marine plywood vs regular plywood question

If we pop back over to the resin portion of the project, what is the preferred (and difference) between the epoxy and poly resins, and what would be your estimated quantity needed for that motor cover?
 

ajgraz

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Re: Marine plywood vs regular plywood question

If I understand this correctly, you're going to build a box, layup some glass on it, and stick a cushion on top? And then finish it inside and out I expect?

For that project, I'd just use some exterior sheathing, like maybe some Georgia Pacific BC Plytanium from Lowes or Home Depot. It's cheap and it uses good exterior grade glues. As long as your project doesn't have any sharp bends in it, the low ply count, low-grade inner plys, and a few voids aren't going to hurt you.

Are you planning to use mat or glass, or just resin straight? If straight resin, you may want a higher quality wood, as the BC stuff won't exactly be a smooth surface. Also, mat/cloth or no will affect the amount of resin needed.

Are you going to paint the outside, or gelcoat it? If gelcoat, you have to use poly resin. If paint, you can choose either.

Or maybe you're going to cover it in vinyl? Or a textured decking like Tuff-Coat or Durabak?
 
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