Uh-Oh... Chocolate mousse for oil.........

MahtyMaht

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Re: Uh-Oh... Chocolate mousse for oil.........

I don't know whether to start a new post, because this is really dropping the other shoe stuff for the guys that consulted with me while I tried to get a damage report on this porker. Told my poor stepson his 7.4 L had undergone the transition to anchor. He knows a guy that runs a local auto repair place, so I told him if he wanted to do a long block, (I wouldn't trust a THANG about those heads), we could avoid a $600 core charge. He's found an '89 truck with a 454, engine $200. Now he tells me there's some local science teacher, former certified Merc man, who's saying, "Everybody's gonna tell ya you can't put that truck motor in your boat, that's crap, yes you can". All my readings suggest that this fellow needs me to explain to him what's going to happen to us all, If he yanks that kid into the kind of punch I think he's planning. I told my stepson that I would SO like to discuss this idea with that fellow. Directly. What am I leaving out here; 1) I fear the truck cam because I don't know yet if resonance reversion is going be an issue with the thru transom pipes and a truck cam. 2) I got NO idea what size valves are in it. 3) No clue if the cam profile is even vaguely compatible with a marine torque-hungry application. 4) best for last, the truck motor has only 49K mi!! Sweeeeeet, Huh? Last question - Why in the possible hell, would I put a marine top end gasket set into a mystery mis-application? Hmmm..... I'm venting aren't I? I got the Stainless Marine manifolds off, threw in some pics of the gasket surfaces, unmessed with. There's sand in the exhaust channels, and in the water channels. About a full shot glass in the water passages per side. Does anybody see that block crack again? Those valve stems - red does NOT become them.
 

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bomar76

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Re: Uh-Oh... Chocolate mousse for oil.........

Put brass core plugs in that truck 454 and throw marine head gaskets on it and go boating.

I run one hell of a lot more aggresive cam with thru hulls than that thing is even close to and have no resonace reversion problems.
 

MahtyMaht

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Re: Uh-Oh... Chocolate mousse for oil.........

Well, alrighty, then!! I'll do a little sniffing around, try to see if the truck engine looks like it needs anything huge and immediate, and go from there.
 

SuperNova

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Re: Uh-Oh... Chocolate mousse for oil.........

throw marine head gaskets on it and go boating.
I've always wonedered...exactly what constitutes a "marine" head gasket? I always just use fel-pro head sets, they are composite head gaskets and I've also had more than a few marine engines apart and I haven't been able to tell any diffference between the head gaskets from any car head gaskets I've seen. Other than I've never seen a boat use those old tin "shim style" head gaskets that cars use to use in the 60's and 70's. Educate me.
 

Bondo

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Re: Uh-Oh... Chocolate mousse for oil.........

Other than I've never seen a boat use those old tin "shim style" head gaskets that cars use to use in the 60's and 70's. Educate me.

Ayuh,... My take on it is,...
It's yet another ole Boater's Tale, that refuses to Die...

Back in the days of Steel shim gaskets, it had merit...
With todays Composite gaskets, it Don't...
 

MahtyMaht

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Re: Uh-Oh... Chocolate mousse for oil.........

Well, as they say in Texas, 'shoot me in the face, and throw me in the ditch!! Lots of the people who talk about it have said the biggest diff was a stainless fire ring in the 'marine' stuff. I've got better pics of that block without the manifolds, and I'm still not seeing the crack. What am I missing?
 

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Bondo

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Re: Uh-Oh... Chocolate mousse for oil.........

Ayuh,... In post #10, picture 4,... It appears to be a sizeable Crack...

With the latest pictures, it appears that Crack is the block/ head parting line, the block's deck...

At this point, I donno where the water came from,...
Lots of the people who talk about it have said the biggest diff was a stainless fire ring in the 'marine' stuff.

Stainless fire rings are pretty much Irrevelant, in theory, as well as practical usage, they never see water...
Or if they do, you've already got other problems...
 

bomar76

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Re: Uh-Oh... Chocolate mousse for oil.........

Ayuh,... My take on it is,...
It's yet another ole Boater's Tale, that refuses to Die...

Back in the days of Steel shim gaskets, it had merit...
With todays Composite gaskets, it Don't...

I tend to agree.
When I built the stroker I did find a Fel Pro marine gasket in the thickness I needed to maintain an ideal quench, so I oredered those and used them.
Before installing I compared them very carefully to a set of Fel Pro non marine gaskets I had on hand (wrong thickenss) and there was no difference I could find.

I plead guilty to perpetuating that rumor.
 

SuperNova

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Re: Uh-Oh... Chocolate mousse for oil.........

I don't know what to tell you, either. Like Bond-o said, post #10 pic #4 looks like a nasty crack in the block...seems pretty clear in fact. But the later photos with better views and less crap in the way seem to tell a different story. I can see from the exhaust ports that it looks like your manifolds and risers are shot and that may be where the water is coming from that is rusting the line between the block and the heads. unfortunately, stuff like this is why professional mechanics get the money they do.......if we were there in person, any of a number of us could tell you exactly what was broke and how to fix it in a few minutes of inspection. Pictures sometimes are difficult to decipher and don't always provide all the clues that are there. All I can say is keep digging and looking.

As far as the head gaskets and the stainless steel firering...as far as I was aware, all firerings are stainless steel.
 

PSS-Mag

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Re: Uh-Oh... Chocolate mousse for oil.........

I've always wonedered...exactly what constitutes a "marine" head gasket? I always just use fel-pro head sets, they are composite head gaskets and I've also had more than a few marine engines apart and I haven't been able to tell any diffference between the head gaskets from any car head gaskets I've seen. Other than I've never seen a boat use those old tin "shim style" head gaskets that cars use to use in the 60's and 70's. Educate me.

Ahoy,
I've been running regular fel-pro gaskets on mine for 3years with no problem and it's been "warm" once or twice. When I put them on I figured if they last a year, for the price and convience, "nearest marina being 36 miles from home" O'rielly's or Auto Zone is 8 miles.... so for that I can change them every year if I had to, but so far hasn't proven to be the case for 3 going on 4 seasons so far.
Knocking on my wood computer desk that I just didn't curse myself....... LOL
 

MahtyMaht

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Re: Uh-Oh... Chocolate mousse for oil.........

I must say that lurking and reading large numbers of threads with pics, I have repeatedly been surprised at what some of you guys have spotted that I had to look for, even after I knew what it was. I think I'm getting warm on what happened to this 454. I've seen in other threads that there are drain petcocks on the sides of the block, and that you are supposed to USE them to winterize. I opened the port side one, and It drained quite freely. I kept not seeing a starboard one. I got the heads off that gorilla today, and the most aft starboard cylinder was full of a really sickly orange water. I think I'm seeing where the gasket let go toward the intake side, promptly tankin' up the lifter valley. Next, I've got to know why the right side got hot. I immediately start remembering the 4" rubber exhaust tube looking a little caved in. I never liked it, stepson said it'd been like that since he got it. Now I want to know by God where that starboard drain petcock is, and in standing on my head with a light, I find a brass plug instead. I think, "BULLPOON!!!" I snatch the plug, and literally drill thru the sand and scale in the jacket, until, sure enough, water starts running. I don't know that that lead to the death of this engine, because the portside petcock was used as a plug too. The risers are Stainless Marine, and they may be the last engine parts standing. I can see where it would be easy to kill water flow in them with scale jammin' in the narrow passage between the inner and outer walls, though. Based on absolutely nothing, I think the heads are not warped, and there are no block cracks. What may kill the block is the pitting in the cylinder wall where the water/antifreeze stood since last season. If I thought that thing would survive the season like it is, I'd get that truck motor to spend the winter prepping for next season season.
 

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Bondo

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Re: Uh-Oh... Chocolate mousse for oil.........

Ayuh,...
Both heads in Both pictures show that the left of center cylinders were passing water right up til the end...
The valves are Dinner-plate Clean...
 

MahtyMaht

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Re: Uh-Oh... Chocolate mousse for oil.........

I've got to decide what to do next; try to clean up the cylinder wall with a wire brush, maybe some light emory, then do some oil and filter changes, maybe with a taste of deisel or K-1 on the first two go 'rounds, and hope for the best for this season, or just snatch the the thing outta there, and take more serious remedial action. I'm trying to avoid pulling the motor, because I'd have to fabricate a lift and an engine stand, but if I thought there was an 80% chance of catastrophic failure, I'd abandon the idea. I suppose I worry most about the status of the rings in that one cylinder, but I remember seeing somebody saying even small amounts of rust would get on the wrist pin, and burn the durn thang down. What do I need to know here?
 

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SuperNova

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Re: Uh-Oh... Chocolate mousse for oil.........

I for one don't know what to tell you other than "proceed with caution". I've saved a lot of motors from worse, but if there is water in the oil....it came from somewhere and probably not the headgaskets or manifold gaskets. It would be nice to examine it in person. I'm gonna say you're best bet is new engine...
 

DaNinja

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Re: Uh-Oh... Chocolate mousse for oil.........

Yeah, I visited the SeaRay at the boat doctor today. It's looking like the block is shot. It may have to be parked for the season or until the wife and/or I are employed again.

I'm also looking at a plan to do the motor swap myself. It's within my capabilties, but I have to figure out where I could do it.
 

artificialreef

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Re: Uh-Oh... Chocolate mousse for oil.........

Hi folks, i am probably in no way qualified to even post on this site but when i was in my twenties i did a stint in an automotive machine shop. Wouldnt his crack question be answered easily checking with magnaflux? We used to use die on aluminum and a magnet on iron (they may make a die for iron now). Check the heads and the sides of the block. I dont think you want that powder stuff in the cylinder so protect it. Then check the deck of the block and heads for warpage. I know the magnet method may be hard to come by but maybe you can rent it. Just my 2Cents. I would want to know before laying out big dollars for a long block. Side note thats all i did for months at the shop when i first got hired. Searched for cracks. I got so good my boss had a hard time passing rebuilds through me. I found cracks on probably 70% of what came through.
 

MahtyMaht

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Re: Uh-Oh... Chocolate mousse for oil.........

I for one don't know what to tell you other than "proceed with caution". I've saved a lot of motors from worse, but if there is water in the oil....it came from somewhere and probably not the headgaskets or manifold gaskets. It would be nice to examine it in person. I'm gonna say you're best bet is new engine...

Hey SuperNova - just wondering why a head gasket couldn't allow water into a cylinder AND into the lifter valley, thereby tankin' up the pan thru that slot above the cam? Looks to me like if enough of the gasket's gone, or the head is warped and lifting in the right spot/s, water would be able to get from the passages in the head/block into the lifter valley? And yeah, a pic can only show so much, never will be a substitute for having the object of interest right there.
 

SuperNova

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Re: Uh-Oh... Chocolate mousse for oil.........

Hey SuperNova - just wondering why a head gasket couldn't allow water into a cylinder AND into the lifter valley, thereby tankin' up the pan thru that slot above the cam? Looks to me like if enough of the gasket's gone, or the head is warped and lifting in the right spot/s, water would be able to get from the passages in the head/block into the lifter valley? And yeah, a pic can only show so much, never will be a substitute for having the object of interest right there.
Theoretically, it could. That is why I said its "probably" not from the headgasket...it's just not very likely. This is also why a pro is so valuable during disassembly.....something most people don't understand.....I would have been looking for all the "telltales" that point to the problem source and could have told you as soon as you pulled the head whether or not water was getting into the oil from the gasket, in all likelihood. Now if it was an aluminum head, I'd say you got a pretty good shot of the water coming from the head gasket....but it's not aluminum, it's a cast iron head, and they just dont usually warp THAT much. But you are right, theoretically, it IS possible. Looking at the last two pictures, I don't see where though.
 

MahtyMaht

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Re: Uh-Oh... Chocolate mousse for oil.........

Uh-Oh.... I got a bad feelin', then - If it wasn't a simple gasket, what else is there but a crack in a head or block, then? I haven't had a chance to clean up the castings yet, so if there was a crack at the mating surfaces, I wouldn't know it. I'm wondering though, about the starboard bank; heat-blistered exhaust tube, cylinder over there full of water, brass plug instead of drain petcock on that side of the block - How much of that gritty looking scale can you have in the block water jacket over there before you get a 7.4L barbeque? And where can I find an image of the water passages in a Mark IV block? I've searched my duff off, I got bupkiss.
 

SuperNova

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Re: Uh-Oh... Chocolate mousse for oil.........

I have not yet seen a head crack from freezing. The blocks usually crack in only a one or more of a few locations......about 3/4 of an inch below the deck surface on either the inside or ouside of the block and/or just above the oil pan mounting rail usually on the inside of the block. Chances are very good with the scale you found right behind the one plug that not all the water was drained and you have a cracked block.....unfortunately the only way to find that crack on the inside of the pan rail is to r&r the engine and tear it down. With the water and rust in that one cylinder, I personally think that is you best bet at this point anyway....quit futzin' with it and get it out and apart. Maybe someone else will have a different opinion.
 
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