Big Box stores & China.

[JustJason]

Re: Big Box stores & China.

You guys in wisconson can't possibly be any worse off tax wise as we are here is MA.

Anyways..... There is a bigger picture here is economies... on a global scale.
WWII was the best thing to happen to the US in order to "industrialize" us as a nation. Before WWII, sure you had your citys and your farmlands, but as a nation we were much more rural than the urbanization we have today. If WWII never happened, and people matured without everthing that happened because of that... we as a country would probably still be very much rural. No weapons/computers research. No industrialized military complex. Very slow progress.

Now lets pretend we are the nation of china. China has the largest population/workforce on the planet, thats a fact. It doesn't mean SKILLED workforce... It just means people who are sick of being farmers, and have watched western TV, and want what we have.
Now if your the chinese govt, it doesn't matter if your democratic or socialist or communist, at 1 point you have to give the people what they want or else they will revolt.... thats fact #2.
So the chinese decide they want to industrialize, because farmers want more than rice and beans, and want to make real money for ipods and plasma tvs. And they are doing so more sucessfully (because of cheap labor and lax laws, no EPA etc) than we are here in the US. Thats fact #3.
The US, not overnight but over a couple of decades, has wanted products of all sorts on the cheap. Thats fact #4. How do poor people afford nice things??? Instead of giving poor people more money, make money stretch further.

Its the same as in the late 50's early 60's when electronics of all sorts started coming in from Japan. Japan had cheap labor at the time. People cursed up an down that Jap electronics were "junk" and would never buy Jap products. On top of that there was a lot of WWII sentiment against the Japs. As it would turn out the Japs make some of the best electronics that can be bought anywhere. Anybody who has anything in the world of high end consumer electronics knows the Japs make the best stuff out there. If you dropped 5k on a tv... what sticker would you like to see on the back of it??? Made in USA, Hencho el Mexico, Made in taiwan, korea, china???? Or Made in Japan?

Getting back to china. Its inevitably going to be a self fullfilling prophecey either way. Either China will continue to have a high ratio of crap to good, and ultimately demand for product from china will fall and go to the next cheap labor country (only to repeat the cycle) Or quality will go up, and demand will increase. If demand increases then so will workers demand for increased compensation, which (take a hint UAW, and other unions) will make the products no longer inexpensive to manufacture. Industry will have to other choice but to move on to the next "cheap labor" market.

Its the nature of a free market system. I'm not China bashing by any means. They are but 1 country in a free market. It won't happen in our lifetime but ultimately free markets will fail, they have to, and this is why....

Think about history as you know it. The egyptians enslaved (aka free labor) the africans. This started 3000 years ago and continued up untill the 1860's here in the US (although aparthied was rampant in other countries up untill a few decades ago). Even after old Abe and the end of slavery (free labor) we exploited the blacks, the irish, the chinese, and everybody else we could to get cheap to free labor. Read up on how dubai is being built on close to slave labor, and this is 2009 folks.

1. I'm sure we can all agree on this. If everybody had a million bucks in the bank, then a million bucks wouldn't be worth a whole lot.

2. The only way for 1 nations economy to thrive, is for anothers to struggle. It is impossible for every country in the world to have a "good" economy. Every empire/civilization on the planet was in some way "built on the backs" of another people.

3. Ask yourself this. Where will YOU go to buy inexpensive products when there in nobody on the planet left to enslave or exploit. How much will your nikes, your abercrombie & fitch, your chevrolets, fords, sonys and panasonics cost when there is nobody left to work for "sweat shop" rates? Its inevitable, it will happen.

4. Cheap labor, exploitation, enslavement, is whats made the world go round for the last few thousand years. Azteks to English, Egyptians to Europeans... all of our ancestors are guilty of being greedy.

5. The problem is much bigger than "made in china" stuff. Think bigger picture here folks. What country will we be complaning about next when most of the stuff made in china is high quality and not cheap to buy?

 

[lowkee]

Re: Big Box stores & China.

Does anyone here even recall when Walmart first opened? The entire premise of the company used to be "Made in the USA". They used to have huge banners advertising it. The entire store was opened to showcase ONLY american made products.

Then the ad campaign stopped.. Nowadays I'd bet the prices for the Made in China stuff is priced higher (it certainly seems that way). There are tons of items I wouldn't even consider buying at Walmart simply because they have increased the prices to the point they are the worst price, not the best.

On a side note:

If WWII never happened, and people matured without everthing that happened because of that... we as a country would probably still be very much rural. No weapons/computers research. No industrialized military complex. Very slow progress.

I must have missed where you listed the 'progress' items in that statement..

 

[JaSla74]

Re: Big Box stores & China.

Does anyone here even recall when Walmart first opened? The entire premise of the company used to be "Made in the USA". They used to have huge banners advertising it. The entire store was opened to showcase ONLY american made products.

Then the ad campaign stopped.. Nowadays I'd bet the prices for the Made in China stuff is priced higher (it certainly seems that way). There are tons of items I wouldn't even consider buying at Walmart simply because they have increased the prices to the point they are the worst price, not the best.

On a side note:



I must have missed where you listed the 'progress' items in that statement..

That was Sam Walton's savvy business sense. Even though 'Buy American' was plastered all over the store, over 80% of their goods were still purchased overseas, & a good portion of those goods were made in sweatshops. Nothing against Sam, as he was extraordanary businessman, but it's the way of the world.

 

[gonefishie]

Re: Big Box stores & China.

Jason, you and I have the exact same viewpoint on this whole thing. Most American consumers don't, they have too much American prides and whine about cost at the same time. No fault of their own, just human nature. However, I've stopped going to Walmart because proper customer service doesn't exist.

 

[HappierWet]

Re: Big Box stores & China.

How about this, " planned obsolesense" make it so they'll like it but have to buy another every so often. How about "trade deficit"......some complained about selling off America, this is how it's happening. The global economy is tough to understand if you look at all the theories and hypothesies. But, really easy to understand if you see we're buying more as a country than we are selling as a country. If I spend more than I make, I'll be bankrupt. Now, let's look at the economy.......

 

[Mark42]

Re: Big Box stores & China.

How about this, " planned obsolesense" make it so they'll like it but have to buy another every so often. How about "trade deficit"......some complained about selling off America, this is how it's happening. The global economy is tough to understand if you look at all the theories and hypothesies. But, really easy to understand if you see we're buying more as a country than we are selling as a country. If I spend more than I make, I'll be bankrupt. Now, let's look at the economy.......

Now ya went and did it! Turned the whole darn thread political. Now some left wing moderator is going to lock the thread because they don't like what you wrote and you will probably get a warning or even be banned.

 

[lowkee]

Re: Big Box stores & China.

I see many cheaply made items as filling a void which existed when many items were meant to last a lifetime. I don't want to pay $300 for a high-end buffer when I'll just be using it to grind fiberglass once and will likely kill it anyhow. I want a $30 one that gets the job done and allows me to spend the leftover $270 on bills or other tools I do need to last (which still exist). Items which people require to last still exist, they are just priced accordingly and at the same price as they used to cost, just with inflation. The cheap stuff we see and think is the new 'way of the world' is really a completely new addition to the quality goods, but we see it as a replacement as it is priced similar to what we remember them costing when we were younger (ie: we ignore inflation when we see a price tag). There are plenty of stores which sell the, still existing, quality goods, but we frequent them only when needed, as saving money often overrides our logic of return on investment. I think the fact is, not much needs to last anymore. Heck, every time I move, I have to shed a bunch of stuff. If that stuff was pricey, quality stuff, I would lose a lot of money each time.

So, in this case, the ChinaMart is just filling a void we as Americans and Canadians left open for exploit. Disposable good for disposible income. We could have built cheap stuff for cheap (maybe not as cheap), but we were so focused on being the best, we forgot to be the smartest.

Am I way off base, here, or does this sound logical to most?

 

[642mx]

Re: Big Box stores & China.

Now ya went and did it! Turned the whole darn thread political. Now some left wing moderator is going to lock the thread because they don't like what you wrote and you will probably get a warning or even be banned.

It might as well be locked.... this thread really isn't going anywhere.

 

[CaptainKev]

Re: Big Box stores & China.

Since I started this thread, I thought I might as well comment before it gets locked. Everything you folks commented on has validity. If economics made any real sense we wouldn't need the Federal Reserve........now there's a thought..........I digress. Money drives the China connection. When that dries up it will be Africa. At some time folks, there is no doubt that we will all pay the price for shipping our manufacturing and service overseas. The monopolistic tragedies of the big box stores scatter empty huge building all over our landscapes, dramatically reduce our choices and hire far less people than they force out of business. All for what? Greed, profit and control. The financial sector proved that when companies "Get too big to fail" we are going to foot the bill. Having said that, I'm going to sneak away before somebody gets really mad......................
Kev.

 

[dingbat]

Re: Big Box stores & China.

People like to complain about corporate greed and profits but how many of you are heavily invested in 401K and IRAs accounts?

It's stock holders that drive the greed and profits. No profits, no investors.

 

[IVAZ]

Re: Big Box stores & China.

There are lots of folks like me..... (who do what is best for themselves). After all, its the American way.

Nah, thats not the American way. Thats how some people that live here think.
God, country and family thats the American way.

 

[HappierWet]

Re: Big Box stores & China.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark42
Now ya went and did it! Turned the whole darn thread political. Now some left wing moderator is going to lock the thread because they don't like what you wrote and you will probably get a warning or even be banned.

It might as well be locked.... this thread really isn't going anywhere.



You're right, I'm bad.......I think for myself and speak ( or write ) unpopular opinions.........And HEY, where did you think this thread was going to go ?

 

[JaSla74]

Re: Big Box stores & China.

I think a lot of us would prefer not to shop at big box stores if we had the choice. Whether it be Wal-Mart, Home Depot, Lowes, Target, etc., most of their items will be manufactured oversees. I personally don't like shopping at Wal-Mart. Their customer service is less than desirable, & it looks like they pull a lot of their work force out of Jurassic Park.

However, it IS an American company, built by a great American, with American employees. Yeah the computer screen you're looking at wasn't made here, but the store you bought it from was most likely American owned. The building or home you're in now was Made In America. Even if part the structure you're in now was partly constructed by cheap labor, an American contractor built it.

Point is, we can get bogged down in all the crap we import from oversees, but remember that our county, our landscape, our laws, our children, & many of our boats were Made In America.

 

[wajajaja02]

Re: Big Box stores & China.

Verizon's dsl tech support is located in Boston,Madison, and Washington DC,and Fair Oaks CA for the non union portion. The Indian tech that they encounter has been with Verizon NJ for over 26 years ,and is an excellent technician and a personal friend of mine, hope to see him at a party of retirees tomorrow. Former DSL tech/support.

 

[erikgreen]

Re: Big Box stores & China.

A fine example of typical American short-sightedness! Save a buck now, lose your job and your kid's future in a few years ........

My job won't go overseas. All I have to do is be better at what I do than anyone else available to my company at the same price, which is easy. After all, I'm an educated man in what is still the richest country in the world, I have more freedom than many people in the world, and if I can't out-compete them without hardly trying, I don't deserve to keep my job.

I have noticed that a lot of people who complain about jobs going overseas, usually followed by dire predictions about my children starving and our country ending are in job sectors where the work is largely unskilled... they seem to be the people who have the sort of 1950s idea where if you work hard and are loyal to your company and country you will be taken care of, and that you have a right to expect that.

That was the case in post WWII america.. where the rest of the world was recovering, we were largely undamaged, and our industry was going hard and fast. Most workers were high school educated, and there wasn't a large overseas pool of workers that could do a decent job, nor any global communications system that would let a company spread itself out that far and still function. Even though you had to pay an american worker more to do a job, it was still cheaper overall than trying to get a chinese peasant trained enough to do it, since you had not only to train them but you had to train the people who supplied them, who managed them, and you had to make sure the chinese government wouldn't take half your output for its own use.

The world has changed a lot since then... much of it is due to the dominance of america. Our economic control, our culture, and to a large extent it's american companies offering a lot of incentive for countries to provide labor forces for making goods.

Like post WW2 Japan, they want to have all the good things than an industrialized nation can provide... hi def TVs, refrigeration, health care, cars, etc... more so because they consider american culture the one to imitate.

So those chinese peasants have a strong incentive to learn fast and work hard... and it doesn't slow things down to learn that they get paid more working to make american goods than working for the chinese govt.

American companies won't stop putting work where it's cheapest to do... it's what they've always done, it's a necessary part of the capitalist system we have. You try to put as much money in your pocket as possible, and keep as much from going out as possible, because if you miss something that saves you money, your competition won't, and your company may go under because their product costs less to consumers, who are also trying to keep as much in their pocket as possible.

Saying "buy american" is silly... our country just doesn't produce some goods any more, others labeled american aren't really made here, and still others are made here but are lower quality than foreign made.

Your fathers that fought in world war 2 were right... at the time American was the best, and we'd proven our superiority in a world war.

But they believed the world wouldn't change, or at least that part of it wouldn't. And it has. Mostly thanks to us winning that war.

So if you decided to get a job like Dad had, working for the large US company, skipping that college degree or trade school certificate, and doing that feel good traditional american blue collar work, you've got a lot of catching up to do at this point. The only way jobs are coming back to the US is when the other nations in the world improve their lifestyles, education, and technology to the point where we're cheaper workers... to the point where US employees are the unlettered peasants.

I hope that never happens.

Don't worry if you've encouraged your kids to follow the same path as you... skip college, work in the big factory, build quality goods, and live a good (if not rich) life.

In 20 years my kids will still need someone to serve them fast food, and your children will be ideal for that role.

I bless the foresight of my father... he barely graduated high school, and when he lost his big company job in the 80s, he declared that all of his children would be required to have college degrees.

Erik

 

[HappierWet]

Re: Big Box stores & China.

SHEESH... A well reasoned, intelligent response.
No slight intended

 

[ShaneCarroll]

Re: Big Box stores & China.

Verizon's dsl tech support is located in Boston,Madison, and Washington DC,and Fair Oaks CA for the non union portion. The Indian tech that they encounter has been with Verizon NJ for over 26 years ,and is an excellent technician and a personal friend of mine, hope to see him at a party of retirees tomorrow. Former DSL tech/support.

What area did you cover for DSL? I know first hand that the office we had in Tampa closed down, and those people were left unemployed. They still have the VADI office in California, but the trouble calls from this region are sent to India. Management even related this to us.

I am not worried about my job going overseas, working in the field has its perks. There is no way someone overseas can maintain utilities in the US, it is physically impossible.

 

[IVAZ]

Re: Big Box stores & China.

My job won't go overseas. All I have to do is be better at what I do than anyone else available to my company at the same price, which is easy. After all, I'm an educated man in what is still the richest country in the world, I have more freedom than many people in the world, and if I can't out-compete them without hardly trying, I don't deserve to keep my job.

I like this, it shows you?re confident, dedicated and hard working. Most people I meet are not this way.

Don't worry if you've encouraged your kids to follow the same path as you... skip college, work in the big factory, build quality goods, and live a good (if not rich) life.

In 20 years my kids will still need someone to serve them fast food, and your children will be ideal for that role.Erik

I do agree, school is very important and parents should make it a point to send their children to college.
It?s not the end of the world if a kid decides to learn a trade and not go to college though. To make my point I will say there is not a single craftsman in my field that makes less money than an engineer (we have two permanent engineers). There demand is high also, we work around the country and world. We are also for the most part high school drop outs. My trade isn?t taught at any college and it?s always in demand, even in this economy. Most degrees would end up in a pay cut for me if I wanted to work their field.
Your educated son one day may be served fast food by an un-educated minimum wage employee. He also may end up working for me, a high school drop out.

 

[erikgreen]

Re: Big Box stores & China.

There's nothing inherently wrong with being uneducated, and in fact I think many people are unsuited to the university type environment... I know I was.

I think what I'm saying is that you shouldn't expect job security and adequate pay in this country in modern times without working to improve yourself in a way that has some value... you can get a trade certificate or serve an apprenticeship, you can work for several years learning a skill set for eg. auto body work, you can get a university degree, or you can join the military and learn a trade there.

Just don't expect to get and keep any more than a subsistence job if you don't bother to do something with yourself after high school, and don't try to keep the job you get by arguing that you're entitled to pay and benefits because you've worked for the company/government/etc for XXX years and you're American.

Also don't go to college to study art history or social work unless you have a long term plan to pay the bills some other way. You're not entitled to make a good living at the trade you choose any more than anyone else is... sometimes you get lucky and you love doing something that pays well. For other jobs you'll be unemployed forever, just like people whose jobs went overseas. Be prepared to suck it up and learn something new to pay the bills, and don't whine about how much student loan debt you have... you chose what you studied.

I view people who try to legislate or unionize or manipulate trade in order to keep the money coming to them the same way I view welfare recipients... they're looking to change the system so they can get money, security, or other benefits they have enjoyed previously rather than changing themselves to survive better in a changing world.

Life goes on and the world changes... my grandfather was a blacksmith, good luck finding work as one of those now. Lumberjacks, gandy dancers, pony express couriers... those jobs are rare in America now. Learn something new or get used to sitting around with your hand out... whether you know it or not, that's what you're doing when you use a union to bludgeon your employer into paying you more than you're worth.

I'd happily side with the union employees if they were arguing for transition support... education benefits, job placement assistance, housing and food assistance for enough time to support themselves again.

But if someone wants me to feel bad about union employees who are going to be out of work because the union refuses to give up their contractual annual raise and full health plan because to do otherwise would be "unfair".... fat chance.

Erik

 

[mscher]

Re: Big Box stores & China.

I am not worried about my job going overseas, working in the field has its perks. There is no way someone overseas can maintain utilities in the US, it is physically impossible.

True, but they can certainly bring in foreign employees and pay them much lower wages.

That's exactly what they did in the IT support field.