Water Softener Question

[Mike Robinson]

Hello All

I have just read Bob_VT's thread on hard water and it brought up a few questions for me. We bought a house a year ago that we are in the process of renovating. We have hard water and I am considering putting in a water softening system but I know very little about them and i am hoping to get some advice here.

First, should I have the water analyzed before looking at a softening system? If so where can I have this done? (I live in a remote community on coastal British Columbia, Canada)

Second, how do water softeners work?

Third, I notice that Sears sells softeners, are they any good?

Thanks for your help!

 

[Tim Frank]

Re: Water Softener Question

Absolutely have an analysis done.
Once you know what is in your water you can then make a rational decision re: what you want to remove; the cost is pretty much proportional to how many different compounds need to be accomodated.

 

[mscher]

Re: Water Softener Question

I was going to try to explain it, but this works better.

http://home.howstuffworks.com/question99.htm

I once worked for an very experienced plumber. He purchased ALL of his plumbing supplies though a wholesale distributer, except for water softeners, which he purchased from Sears. He thought they were good units at very good prices. He would not even set foot in a Home Depot.

 

[Tim Frank]

Re: Water Softener Question

Hello All

I have just read Bob_VT's thread on hard water and it brought up a few questions for me. We bought a house a year ago that we are in the process of renovating. We have hard water and I am considering putting in a water softening system but I know very little about them and i am hoping to get some advice here.

First, should I have the water analyzed before looking at a softening system? If so where can I have this done? (I live in a remote community on coastal British Columbia, Canada)

Second, how do water softeners work?

Third, I notice that Sears sells softeners, are they any good?

Thanks for your help!

Sorry, did not fully answer your analysis question.

Water softener technology is pretty established and pretty standard from locale to locale. what does change is local conditions based on various things like geology etc. that have been discussed in posts like BobVt's and other info can be found online if you search.
Sources to find out what you need would include : 1) neighbours. As long as they are close, they should have the same water chemistry as you and may already have a solution.....find out what they are doing. 2) the places that sell water softening equipment should be able to provide analysis service.
3) you may be able to get some information from whatever municipal body administers your local government district.

As for how water softeners work, the 5 cent answer is that they use a form of ion exchange column that swaps ions in your water that cause the hardness, for ions that don't. After a time the ion exchange medium is "full" of the ions that you have removed and is unable to do any more exchanging....so needs to be regenerated with a fresh supply of "good" ions.

As MSCHER suggests, there are many websites that will give the $5- answer, including the one he supplied.

Can't comment on the Sears softeners except that they have been selling them for a long time and I have not heard any negative stuff. But as above, see what your neighbours are using.

 

[rlk]

Re: Water Softener Question

First, should I have the water analyzed before looking at a softening system? If so where can I have this done? (I live in a remote community on coastal British Columbia, Canada)

Mike, you should get your water tested, but I would call an independent lab for the testing. In other words, don't get a free test from Sears, Culligan, or any other company that sells water softening systems. Remember, they are in the business of selling water softening systems, so your water will always have a problem that only their system will remove.

I don't know about the labs where you are, but in NC the labs will provide a container for the sample and give you a protocol to follow for taking the sample.

If you do not have a lab close to you, there are a few labs you can ship your water sample to. The lab will supply a kit that includes an ice pack you freeze. After taking the sample, you wrap the ice pack around the sample and send it overnight to their lab.

Once they analyze your water, they will list their findings and give a recommendation as to what should be removed.

Good luck, Bob.

 

[triumphrick]

Re: Water Softener Question

Mike, you should get your water tested, but I would call an independent lab for the testing. In other words, don't get a free test from Sears, Culligan, or any other company that sells water softening systems. Remember, they are in the business of selling water softening systems, so your water will always have a problem that only their system will remove. QUOTE]

Florida is the home of the water softener senior citizen rip off. All of our water comes to us via limestone...caves, bottoms of rivers, etc. All our water is hard and any of these softener salesmen can precipitate calcium before your very eyes....they make it seem like magic. And then, the old " if you continue to drink this stuff, untreated, you will surely turn into a pillar of salt" speal gets most of our elderly, as well as others, to sign their name on the bottom of that $2500 contract.
Those exact same softeners are sold at Sears and are as good if not better than anything they sell. I have been installing my own in my homes for over thirty years. Practically maintenance free, just buy the salt and go....Good luck!

 

[DJ]

Re: Water Softener Question

I've had several systems.

-Ecowater.

-Kinnetico.

-Culligan.

The Kinnetico seems to be the most maintence free (other than salt, of course). The Kinnetico does not require any electrical connection, the others did, for what reason I can't explain.

I've had zero issues with the current system. I did have "controller" issues with the others.

 

[Mike Robinson]

Re: Water Softener Question

Thanks for your help!

We are on town water and I know the fellow who takes care of the system and I know he sends off water samples on a regular basis. I will talk to him and see if i can get the results from those tests. I'm not sure what to do with the data. Is there someone at sears who can recommend a system? I should emphasize that I live on an island that is in a remote area so getting some one to come and install a system is not a viable option.

 

[SuzukiChopper]

Re: Water Softener Question

Generally water tests are to determine if you need any other systems in place to prolong the life of the softner and make it more effective. The softner itself that you want to buy has to be able to generate enough soft water for the water usage in your house, nothing more.

Depending on the water tests you might need a reverse osmosis system, an iron filter, or other system. Call a water testing lab and ask what they need you to do to send them a sample (should just need a small canning jar full). Once the test is complete they should be able to recommend what action you should take.

 

[mscher]

Re: Water Softener Question

I've had several systems.

-Ecowater.

-Kinnetico.

-Culligan.

The Kinnetico seems to be the most maintence free (other than salt, of course). The Kinnetico does not require any electrical connection, the others did, for what reason I can't explain.

I've had zero issues with the current system. I did have "controller" issues with the others.

Kennetico systems use water flow to drive gears, that measure usage, start and end backflushing, thererfore, no electrical controller needed.

They are one of the best softeners made, but unfortunately, one of the most expensive. Since the beads are replacable, they will last for ever. I always keep an eye out for a used unit.

 

[mthieme]

Re: Water Softener Question

I have a Sears unit. No complaints other than it doesn't work miracles.

 

[WizeOne]

Re: Water Softener Question

.....except for water softeners, which he purchased from Sears. He thought they were good units at very good prices. He would not even set foot in a Home Depot.

They are identical units,(Home Depot and Sears) made by the same manufacturer, with different shaped fenders and doors.

So much for your friends knowledge on these matters.

 

[DJ]

Re: Water Softener Question

Kennetico systems use water flow to drive gears, that measure usage, start and end backflushing, thererfore, no electrical controller needed.

They are one of the best softeners made, but unfortunately, one of the most expensive. Since the beads are replacable, they will last for ever. I always keep an eye out for a used unit.

That's why I'm taking this one with me when and if I move again.

 

[WizeOne]

Re: Water Softener Question

They are one of the best softeners made, but unfortunately, one of the most expensive. Since the beads are replacable, they will last for ever. I always keep an eye out for a used unit.

They cost very little more to manufacture than others do. They are just able to over hype their non electric and their no down time features to lure in all the uninformed for premium prices.

Take it for what it is worth. They do no more than any other softener and if you cannot stand one hour of downtime, once every 3-6 days in the middle of the night, then that feature is of value. Otherwize you are paying thru the nose for very little.

Digital electronic units like Home Depot's and Sears use about a $1.76 worth of electricity a year.

 

[Kiwi Phil]

Re: Water Softener Question

Mike, the obvious 1st move to me is your local authority, that is treating and pumping the water to you.
To be on a mains supply, no matter how remote, there will be many others on the same mains.
The local water authority will have a Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) which will provide you with all the info you require, (under their Quality Assurance Program (QA)). I would be asking for this, even if I had to pay for it.
The next obvious move would be to approach others on the same mains as you and ask how they find the water.
I would take a slightly synical approach, until I had established factual "facts", as opposed to opinions, hear-say and effects from clever marketing....then make my decision.
Just my approach to problems.
Cheers
Phillip

 

[WizeOne]

Re: Water Softener Question

Thanks for your help!

We are on town water and I know the fellow who takes care of the system and I know he sends off water samples on a regular basis. I will talk to him and see if i can get the results from those tests. I'm not sure what to do with the data. Is there someone at sears who can recommend a system? I should emphasize that I live on an island that is in a remote area so getting some one to come and install a system is not a viable option.

Any water treatment system for you home (non health related) should be applied based on symptoms that you are experiencing and are witness to. Things such as mineral build up, evidence of pipe errosion (blue green stains from your copper plumbing or rust stains from your steel plumbing) smells or discolored water. If you have none of these issues then you do not need water treatment.

Labs are a poor source of treatment information and in the absence of symptoms that you can describe a water treatment dealer is the last person you want to consult.

 

[Tim Frank]

Re: Water Softener Question

Any water treatment system for you home (non health related) should be applied based on symptoms that you are experiencing and are witness to. Things such as mineral build up, evidence of pipe errosion (blue green stains from your copper plumbing or rust stains from your steel plumbing) smells or discolored water. If you have none of these issues then you do not need water treatment.

Labs are a poor source of treatment information and in the absence of symptoms that you can describe a water treatment dealer is the last person you want to consult.

Couldn't disagree more.

Once you start to experience the type of things suggested above, it means that you now have the problems that are predictably caused by compounds in the water in your supply. These can be quite expensive to repair ~ clogged cast iron pipes...deteriorated copper....corroded hot water tank elements...etc.
The whole point of various water treatments is to avoid just this....an ounce of prevention etc.

A water analysis...whether independently done or obtained from the municipal water authority, will give you a good benchmark and profile of your water's chemical makeup.

Then (and again to differ with the folks who have advised against going to a vendor of water softeners because you are guaranteed to get screwed by these "unscrupulous types" ~ I take the view that it is their field of business and they are the experts....and it is not very difficult to research a business's history of customer complaints/satisfaction) contact a business that deals in water treatment gear. They can look at your water "fingerprint" and make specific recommendations on what they think you should consider as a solution.

At that point you can do as much additional research of your own as you wish to determine what you want to do. You would be not be obligated to go ahead with anything that you were not comfortable doing.

 

[WizeOne]

Re: Water Softener Question

....Couldn't disagree more.....

You may do that TF. I still say if you can't see it, feel it, smell it, or taste it, then it is very likely that you do not need any treatment. In the absence of any symptoms you are asking to be misled by having someone in 'the industry' test your water just for grins. I guarantee that 9 out of 10 of them will still come up with something to sell you whether you need it or not.

 

[DJ]

Re: Water Softener Question

They cost very little more to manufacture than others do. They are just able to over hype their non electric and their no down time features to lure in all the uninformed for premium prices.

Take it for what it is worth. They do no more than any other softener and if you cannot stand one hour of downtime, once every 3-6 days in the middle of the night, then that feature is of value. Otherwize you are paying thru the nose for very little.

Digital electronic units like Home Depot's and Sears use about a $1.76 worth of electricity a year.

Well call me uninformed and susceptible to hype.

I DO know that I had to replace the electronics on both the Culligan and Ecowater. More than the price difference. The heat here, tends to be hard on them. If a unit doesn't have one, it can't fail.

I'm not a water softener expert, nor do I want to be. That's the whole point of a system that I don't have to mess with or spend extra $$$ on.

 

[Tim Frank]

Re: Water Softener Question

I guarantee that 9 out of 10 of them will still come up with something to sell you whether you need it or not.

That statement is as unbalanced, indefensible, and non-contributory as anything I have read in these forums.( Even more so than criticising someone's professional skill, as you did in an earlier post, simply because they choose not to patronise a particular store )

Are you truly trying to tell us that 9 out of 10 businesses in your country are dishonest?