Ralph Peters today in USA today

[OldMercsRule]

Re: Ralph Peters today in USA today

Quote Omer

All this wonder can't be an accident, from an eternity of random chaos. IMHO. JR


Oh, yes it can! IMHO

Hey Stevieray, Can order come from chaos? Me thinks the theory is, (the way I understand it), that it actually can't. Hopefully there is an engineer or partical physics guy on iboats that can address this significant topic. The order of things had to start somewhere. So how did the Big Bang start; how did atoms get organized with protons, neutrons, n' electrons in quantam orbits, (n' lots more exotic particles to boot)? Why is there gravity? Why did stars form, galaxies form? Why do larger stars blow up, (super nova) n' fling all the heaver elements n' building blocks of life far and wide? Why does E=MC squared? As I stated earlier: no known species has changed to another one, so where did they all come from? Lots of very complex order to the things we can all see, (n' probably more order that we can't yet see), yet what we can just flat blows me away! Chaos begats more chaos: nothing more, (that is the theory I believe). That is something heavy ta ponder don't ya think? It might just take more faith to believe we are the top o' the food chain then to believe in the BIG FELLA: GOD. Respectfully JR

 

[crunch]

Re: Ralph Peters today in USA today

Consider this JR, if all was created by some God, why was he such a poor designer?

Just look at yourself (not getting personal here). We are, supposedly created in "his image"... yet we are the only species on the planet that can choke on their food and die from it.... kind of a design flaw, wouldn't you say?

Then there is that pesky thing that happens when our bodies start attacking themselves, or the DNA flips out and runs amuck... there are countless examples of not so Intelligent design that any competent God would have foreseen and eliminated.

As for the "all seeing God" of our King James Bible fame.... can you see how cruel he must be if real?

I usually try to stay out of these religious threads as they generally devolve into “beliefs” as opposed to anything you can get a handle on.... and I’m a touchie, feelie kinda guy.

In other words.... show me the evidence.

 

[OldMercsRule]

Re: Ralph Peters today in USA today

Consider this JR, if all was created by some God, why was he such a poor designer?

Just look at yourself (not getting personal here). We are, supposedly created in "his image"... yet we are the only species on the planet that can choke on their food and die from it.... kind of a design flaw, wouldn't you say?

Then there is that pesky thing that happens when our bodies start attacking themselves, or the DNA flips out and runs amuck... there are countless examples of not so Intelligent design that any competent God would have foreseen and eliminated.

As for the "all seeing God" of our King James Bible fame.... can you see how cruel he must be if real?

I usually try to stay out of these religious threads as they generally devolve into “beliefs” as opposed to anything you can get a handle on.... and I’m a touchie, feelie kinda guy.

In other words.... show me the evidence.

Hey Crunch, Now we are into the nature of God, my statement above is making a logical case for inteligent design of things by God, (as I believe) or something very much like a God, (which seems logical if you ponder an eternity of random chaos), and I'm waiting for a thoughtful possible explanation for the order we observe that does not envolve the BIG FELLA. I stated that it is a bigger stretch to believe chaos leads to the order we see, then to believe or accept the possibility of God. As stated, I for one: do not read the bible literally. Clearly the bible explains the negative things your are asking about as the Devil, and the evil he does. As to a perfect design I don't recall any statement in scripture that everything has to be perfect, (living things do seem to evolve to better function, just not change species). So I guess we are at an impass. You and I usually debate from the positive side of things, this time you took the negative side. God is perfect; his creation does have flaws. Respectfully JR ps BB do you know much about particle physics or chaos theory?

 

[QC]

Re: Ralph Peters today in USA today

Murky's post (#942) is why I have posted a few times here that it takes more faith to believe in nothing, which is basically what those of you who claim that you know there is no creator believe in. Nothing. There is no origin, there is no explanation, you don't need one, science will figure it out for you because it is logical that we all sprang from nothing out of nowhere. Please logically consider that phrase "nothing out of nowhere" . . . It is against everything your "logical" mind teaches you, yet you "believe" that . . . hmmmmm. Even the venerated Carl Sagan suggested that if you do not believe in creation then you have to believe in one of two things. Either a world with no beginning and no end (which doesn't work for the logic that I know) orrr you must believe in the possibility of nothing coming from nowhere, which is at least equally illogical. There are no other choices.

And as for the very predictable, "but who created God then" heh, heh, heh. Flip I don't know, but at least I can conceive of the possibility that there is something that actually started this a ball a rollin' that I can't and don't understand, but I know it ain't nothing from nowhere, because that would make even less sense . . .

There are some very credible physicists who now suggest it is more logical to consider a creator than not. Also, crunch, I hate to say it, but on this subject you are arguing like your favorite opponent(s). I am not sure that the concept of Intelligent design is required, but if you stop with the canned responses and think out of the box that you've put yourself in, the possibility that what a creator is can even be debated. This discussion does not require a literal interpretation of the King James Bible, and I don't believe that an "all knowing" God has been suggested by anyone other than . . . uh . . . you.

The evidence BTW, is in the lack of any other "logical" explanation . . . An interesting one to ponder is that pure energy is light. What are the first words of Genesis? Hmmmmmmm . . .

BTW, I am honestly not preaching for the sake of converting anybody to anything. I don't. But it is bothersome that those of you with closed minds suggest that this concept cannot be debated logically. Ya know why I am familiar with it? Well, of course, that's exactly what I used to "believe", and I have not been "born again" (intended respectfully), but I want to make the case that this can be an unemotional topic and a logical one.

 

[Haut Medoc]

Re: Ralph Peters today in USA today

Murky, sorry for derailing your post......:$
I've deliberated long & hard on the subject at hand.....
That said, I'm gonna start a new religion......
In this new religion, in order to achieve salvation, one must pray to the "Goracle" :devil:
It will be the only way to save us from ourselves & the wrath of you know who......
Of course as the Profit......er Prophet, I will be entitled to do as I please........
Feel free to ask any questions, but it may take a while to get back to you.....
Because I am making it up as I go........

 

[OldMercsRule]

Re: Ralph Peters today in USA today

Very Good post QC (#6780). OK me Bro, I can see where you can dismiss all religion as potentially being "made up". Some of the Great Religons, and many of the lesser ones maybe just that. I also will agree that there are some glaring problems with the book, (both the 4000 year old one and to a lesser extent the 1700 year old collection of Paul's letters n' such as agreed upon at the direction of ol' Constantine). I don't want to get specific or some of my Christian iboats buds may get all over me. That said, I accept Jesus Christ as my savior. It strikes me that he walked into one of the scariest places in the world for a Jew living in Palistine 2000 years ago: Solomon's temple! He walked in thumped the money changers n' told the head Rabi that he was God big G. The result was quite predictable. That was well enough documented that I think history supports the deal. Most other followings boost the people and play to the power. What Jesus did was real selfless. He sought out the poor the *****s et al NOT THE POWER. That impresses the ol' brain cell n' I for one think he is GOD big G. Sorry me Bro I'm hooked. JR

 

[Mark42]

Re: Ralph Peters today in USA today

Well, I'm not in a good mood, so let me reflect a moment- - -

WHO THE F***K IS RALPH PETERS.

And you answer better be DAMN good or else you will be held accountable for this post in future posts.

I'ts just the way stuff works around here. Get used to it.

 

[Haut Medoc]

Re: Ralph Peters today in USA today

Murky, you will have a PM.......

 

[crunch]

Re: Ralph Peters today in USA today

Hey Crunch, Now we are into the nature of God, my statement above is making a logical case for inteligent design of things by God

And my contention is that there is no Intelligent design.

65 million years ago Dinosaurs dominated this planet, any mammal that existed was small... about the size of a mouse. Then a meteor, (comet core?) struck in what we now call the Yucatan Peninsula creating a crater well over 200 miles in diameter, and spreading a layer of ash and dust ALL over the world. The ejecta from this strike has been found as far away as the west coast. It has been speculated, and computer models show that the heat released from that strike set the forests of the whole North and Northern parts of the South American Continents on fire. That added to the debris thrown into the atmosphere from the strike itself caused what could be termed a “nuclear winter”

It certainly put paid to the Dinosaurs. Nothing survived that strike that, if memory serves me, weighing over 25 lbs.

We have fossil records of the time before, and right after. We have Geologic records, set in stone of the layer of ash and dirt, laced with Iridium that date this event, and show the extent of the devastation. We have the crater from that strike that fits neatly within the time frame and composition of the “fallout” from that strike.... all current evidence at this point is fairly conclusive that this is what caused that extinction

Recent finds in China of extremely well preserved fossils, buried in that Iridium laced stratum, show that, contrary to the popular conception that Dinosaurs were cold blooded lizards, they were warm blooded, had crops with rocks to grind their food, and had the beginnings of feathers.

I’ve been fascinated by the idea of monsters the size and ferocity of Dinosaurs from the age of 2 or 3 years old, (yes, I remember back that far) so I’ve kinda kept abreast, and read what came my way so I’m not just talking out my.....

Next spring when you see a Robin pecking at your lawn, or a Sparrow building a nest.... tell me species don’t evolve into what they weren’t... 65 million years ago.

 

[OldMercsRule]

Re: Ralph Peters today in USA today

Hey Crunch, Now we are into the nature of God, my statement above is making a logical case for inteligent design of things by God

And my contention is that there is no Intelligent design.

65 million years ago Dinosaurs dominated this planet, any mammal that existed was small... about the size of a mouse. Then a meteor, (comet core?) struck in what we now call the Yucatan Peninsula creating a crater well over 200 miles in diameter, and spreading a layer of ash and dust ALL over the world. The ejecta from this strike has been found as far away as the west coast. It has been speculated, and computer models show that the heat released from that strike set the forests of the whole North and Northern parts of the South American Continents on fire. That added to the debris thrown into the atmosphere from the strike itself caused what could be termed a “nuclear winter”

It certainly put paid to the Dinosaurs. Nothing survived that strike that, if memory serves me, weighing over 25 lbs.

We have fossil records of the time before, and right after. We have Geologic records, set in stone of the layer of ash and dirt, laced with Iridium that date this event, and show the extent of the devastation. We have the crater from that strike that fits neatly within the time frame and composition of the “fallout” from that strike.... all current evidence at this point is fairly conclusive that this is what caused that extinction

Recent finds in China of extremely well preserved fossils, buried in that Iridium laced stratum, show that, contrary to the popular conception that Dinosaurs were cold blooded lizards, they were warm blooded, had crops with rocks to grind their food, and had the beginnings of feathers.

I’ve been fascinated by the idea of monsters the size and ferocity of Dinosaurs from the age of 2 or 3 years old, (yes, I remember back that far) so I’ve kinda kept abreast, and read what came my way so I’m not just talking out my.....

Next spring when you see a Robin pecking at your lawn, or a Sparrow building a nest.... tell me species don’t evolve into what they weren’t... 65 million years ago.

Hey Crunch, OK I accept that too, that does not prove that God doesn't exist. In fact the wonders you talk about are proof to me he does in fact exist. Things just work too well. IMHO. JR

 

[OldMercsRule]

Re: Ralph Peters today in USA today

Well, I'm not in a good mood, so let me reflect a moment- - -

WHO THE F***K IS RALPH PETERS.

And you answer better be DAMN good or else you will be held accountable for this post in future posts.

I'ts just the way stuff works around here. Get used to it.

Wow what happened? Col Peters is a retired military historian, and a best selling author. I knew his op ed piece would provoke critical thinking and possible discussion but I'm surprized he torqued you so bad. He does have a negative view, but it is well thought out and well backed up. I love to read him, and I don't always agree with him but he sure makes me think. Sorry this offended you. JR

 

[crunch]

Re: Ralph Peters today in USA today

OK I accept that too, that does not prove that God doesn't exist.

LOL.... I never said it did!

You asked for one example of a species evolving into another.... I gave you 300,000+ examples.....based on fact, not faith.

I have a hard time believing in a God that demands total commitment, worship to show that commitment, and an eternity of Hell fire if you don't commit... all based on faith.... no fact, just faith.

Either you have to believe in a god that is cruel beyond anything we can imagine, or you have to admit:

#1 There is no God.
#2 We have no idea of what god is or wants.
#3 We just comfort ourselves with the idea of a God.
#4 God is an insane being that should be locked up.

I’m an Agnostic, so I go for #2.

 

[OldMercsRule]

Re: Ralph Peters today in USA today

OK I accept that too, that does not prove that God doesn't exist.

LOL.... I never said it did!

You asked for one example of a species evolving into another.... I gave you 300,000+ examples.....based on fact, not faith.

I have a hard time believing in a God that demands total commitment, worship to show that commitment, and an eternity of Hell fire if you don't commit... all based on faith.... no fact, just faith.

Either you have to believe in a god that is cruel beyond anything we can imagine, or you have to admit:

#1 There is no God.
#2 We have no idea of what god is or wants.
#3 We just comfort ourselves with the idea of a God.
#4 God is an insane being that should be locked up.

I’m an Agnostic, so I go for #2.

OK Crunch, The only think I will dispute here is the 300,000 examples of species evolution. I agree that the dinosoars were likely very big birds, (or distant relatives of 'em). After the kill, (which could have been planned or free agency who knows), the conditions favored mammels not birds. The BIG FELLA coulda planned it or let it happen, (which seems more likely ta me). I understand the Agnostic mind set, (been there done that too). I'm just over to the other side, and real comfortable about it: that's all my friend! Headin' home now, hope Mark settles down. Maybe he got some bad weather. JR

 

[crunch]

Re: Ralph Peters today in USA today

Have a good night/day Murky.

I had/have no desire to upset any apple carts here....

I am an agnostic and believe that your "truth" is as valid as my "truth"

I just wonder sometimes why God, in his infinite wisdom, and his demand that we worship him, didn't put in 50 mile high flaming letters in our sky his desire for that worship.... seems only fair compared to the penalty invoked.

 

[OldMercsRule]

Re: Ralph Peters today in USA today

Have a good night/day Murky.

I had/have no desire to upset any apple carts here....

[colour=green]Niether do I, I'm very comfortable with the discourse so far.[/colour]

I am an agnostic and believe that your "truth" is as valid as my "truth"

[colour=green]I very much agree here too. Beliefs are fun for me to debate, (although the debates are very different due to the nature n' magnitude o' the matters). I do not wish to offend here.[/colour]

I just wonder sometimes why God, in his infinite wisdom, and his demand that we worship him, didn't put in 50 mile high flaming letters in our sky his desire for that worship.... seems only fair compared to the penalty invoked.

[colour=green]The nature of GOD n' his rules are by no means certian to me. The ol' brain cell can't even come close to grasping the scope: breadth n' depth, o' the BIG FELLA, (that's Jesus Christ, The Father n' Heaven n' the Holly Ghost). As a "Liberal cafeteria Christian" Cornservative I accept the grace o' God as given to me a couple o' thousand years back. Seems that was an exceptional event, but: that is my truth: Crunch. Respectfully, (and I mean no harm or consternation to others here on iboats). JR[/colour]

 

[SoulWinner]

Re: Ralph Peters today in USA today

Stalin didn't slaughter millions because of religion. Japan didn't slaughter the Chinese because of religion. Same with Hitler, Pol Pot, Chairman Mao. Without religion there is always love of money, desire for more territory or good ole fashioned racism. Humans will always find a reason to kill one another, the losers will be the ones who spend their time trying to figure out why, while the victors will be the ones focus on victory.

 

[Haut Medoc]

Re: Ralph Peters today in USA today

I guess I guess I can understand the good ol' reasons for killin'....
Power, money, greed, wimmins......
It just don't sit well with me when it is done in the name of 'God'.........

 

[OldMercsRule]

Re: Ralph Peters today in USA today

I guess I guess I can understand the good ol' reasons for killin'....
Power, money, greed, wimmins......
It just don't sit well with me when it is done in the name of 'God'.........

Yea Bro, But you allready admitted why that reason is intollerable ta you! JR8)8)

 

[stevieray]

Re: Ralph Peters today in USA today

Well, Murky, since I instigated a lot of this with a somewhat juvenile comment, a few closing thoughts, if I may...

First, if there actually turns out to be a god (and only our dying will tell), I find it highly unlikely that he would be so uneasily vain as to be so offended by me, who simply doubts his existence based on the logical & visible evidence available to me, to commit me to an eternity of suffering. I have led a life that most would agree to be in accordance with his main principles. Even given the total absence of a judging power, I could never go around willy-nilly killing & raping & pillaging because my own conscience would not allow it - I would be in a constant state of living hell in my mind (which is solely where I believe it exists anyway).

Second, regarding your perception of beauty & the order of things. I do not understand where this "beauty" and "order" are supposed to be found. Throughout nature, animals ruthlessly prey upon each other. More of them are either cruelly killed by other animals or slowly die of hunger. For an example, I really don't see any very great beauty or order in the tapeworm. I don't think that this creature is sent as a punishment for anybody's sins, because it is more prevalent among animals than among humans. I bring back the image of the child in the cancer ward. What part of beauty & order can this possibly serve? You have mentioned such things as the beauty of the starry night sky. Remember that stars every now and then do explode and reduce everything in their neighborhood to a vague mist. There are pictures to prove that beyond a doubt. Beauty, in any case, is entirely subjective and exists only in the eye of the beholder.

I apologize to the Frog in advance for the long-windedness - I promise I'll throw in a short fart somewhere in your honor.

The floor is yours.

 

[crunch]

Re: Ralph Peters today in USA today

Awwww, but stevieray, the one thing you haven't done, (some mind reading here) is pay10% of your income (before taxes of course) to your Place of Worship to do your share of maintaining that place and the person that dwells there.

This is the scam that has been going on for most of all human history, the Catholic Church has made a science of it.

Just look at the churches around you, most are ornate with cut glass windows, large properties, and interior fixtures to die for.... ask yourself, why?

Look at the suffering in counties that are predominantly Catholic.... then look at the church those people support.

Organized Religion is for the benefit of the organizers, not the people. If it were the opposite, the churches would be small, run-down, the hierarchy poor, and the people much better off.... IMNSHO.