Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

jasoutside

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Dec 20, 2009
Messages
13,269
I originally posted these videos in my Sea Nymph Rebuild thread. I thought it would be good to post them in the general section for everybody to check out and hopefully make an informed decision about flotation for their aluminum boat.

Pour in foam in aluminum boats...
 

jasoutside

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Dec 20, 2009
Messages
13,269
Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

Qualifier...

So, in short, pour in expanding foam...

Positives
Excellent Sound Deadening Qualities
Great for Structure
Fills Most of the Voids (if poured correctly)

Negatives
NO DRAINAGE
Expensive
Useless When Satuarated
Possible Corrosion Issues
Added Weight When Soaked

Just one man's opinion:)
 

jigngrub

Fleet Admiral
Joined
Mar 19, 2011
Messages
8,155
Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

I liked your video, but found it to be misinformed and biased.

You blame the foam, but it's not the foams fault. That foam is saturated because of poor design/engineering on that boat and neglect by the previous owner.

That foam would not be saturated had the engineers designed that bilge to drain, and that foam wouldn't be saturated had the PO protected his boat from the elements by either covering it or garaging it... it's not the foams fault. The foam was sitting there waiting to do it's job if the boat ever sank, it could not help that is was exposed to rain, snow, and ice... nor could it protect itself.

Had that transom and deck been sealed properly before installation, it wouldn't have been mushy mulch either... that wasn't the foams fault either.

There are way to install pour in foam in an aluminum boat that will ensure drainage and prevent the foam from becoming saturated. There are also steps all boat owners should take to protect their investment and avoid neglect.

So please, don't blame the foam... put the blame where it really belongs.
 

dozerII

Admiral
Joined
Oct 25, 2009
Messages
6,527
Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

Moving this over from Jasons thread.

Originally Posted by jigngrub
Common Applications: Our 2LB density marine foam is recommended for void filling in nonstructural applications. This product can be poured underneath decks and inside cavities where a lightweight flotation foam is needed to provide buoyancy. This foam has been tested in accordance with U.S. Coast Guard Regulation # 33 CFR 183.114 . This foam is approximately 95-98% closed cell which resists absorbing water, however continuous water submersion can eventually lead to loss of buoyancy over a period of years

Hmmmmm...

If some folks would pull their bilge plug after every trip to see what's going on in there, their foam wouldn't saturate... but some folks neglect to do that, they're afraid they'll lose it or forget to put it in before launching... so it stays right there in that little hole and minor problems aren't noticed until the become big problems.

Don't be an optimist, be a realist! Even brand new boats need the bilge plug pulled regularly.
What Jason and I are saying is pulling the bildge plug would not have helped on our two boats. Because of the way the foam was installed there was no way for the water to even get to the bilge. Mine was exactly the same anywhere you dug a hole in the foam it filled with water just like a well. And if this foam is not supposed to absorb water "for years "why did it in a boat that isn't even a year old, that only sat out side "with the plug out" for a few months???

What Jason and I are saying is pulling the bildge plug would not have helped on our two boats. Because of the way the foam was installed there was no way for the water to even get to the bilge. Mine was exactly the same anywhere you dug a hole in the foam it filled with water just like a well. And if this foam is not supposed to absorb water "for years "why did it in a boat that isn't even a year old, that only sat out side "with the plug out" for a few months???

Glen
 

jigngrub

Fleet Admiral
Joined
Mar 19, 2011
Messages
8,155
Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

What Jason and I are saying is pulling the bildge plug would not have helped on our two boats. Because of the way the foam was installed there was no way for the water to even get to the bilge. Mine was exactly the same anywhere you dug a hole in the foam it filled with water just like a well. And if this foam is not supposed to absorb water "for years "why did it in a boat that isn't even a year old, that only sat out side "with the plug out" for a few months???

Glen

Your and J's boats were of the poor design I mentioned in my earlier post. A lot of manufacturers will skimp on the deck framing and use the thinnest plywood decking they can get away with and then fill the bilge completely with expanding foam to support the cheap and minimal deck job. Sure, the deck feels nice and solid under foot and has great sound deadening qualities... but if those boats are neglected and exposed to the elements everything will go to hell in a handbag in a few years.

Why your brothers boat had saturated foam, I don't know. Maybe they used bad foam, maybe the boat sat on the yard at the factory for a long time with the plug in or without the bow elevated enough to provide proper drainage... who knows?

Some of the manufacturers are building boats the right way now and are providing good bilge drainage, better framing, and better (thicker) decking to prevent the foam from saturating now.

I didn't know it when I bought my boat new, but I got one of those better boats... and it's a TRACKER!
The bilge on my '97 Tracker Pro Deep V:
DSC02206.jpg

DSC02208paint.jpg
 

ezmobee

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 26, 2007
Messages
23,767
Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

The method used to apply the foam in grub's boat is certainly conducive to the Tracker and Sea Nymp "bulkhead" style deck supports. It would be more difficult to achieve this with the typical Starcraft longitudinal stringer setup.
 

irishmedic6

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Dec 1, 2010
Messages
41
Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

Not to beat a dead horse, but I have to agree with Jason, no matter how much you air something out, remove the bilge plug, etc. water will get trapped, unless it is inside a sealed structure (the 4 corners of my War Eagle.....reason why people are advised not to screw/drill into those areas). It is nearly impossible to install an expandable foam that will not expand into the drainage channels within the hull's design. Unless you have a method of installing some kind of wire that can be pulled out through the transom drain whole making drain channels, I would use another method.

This was posted on the other thread prior to seeing the pics above....
I do agree that the main area through the middle will be very effective for drainage through the middle, are there also similar channels running from the lateral edges to the center?
 

jigngrub

Fleet Admiral
Joined
Mar 19, 2011
Messages
8,155
Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

This was posted on the other thread prior to seeing the pics above....
I do agree that the main area through the middle will be very effective for drainage through the middle, are there also similar channels running from the lateral edges to the center?

It's a deep V and everything slopes to the center, including the top of the foam. There is clearance between the decking and the top of the foam so the decking doesn't touch the foam.

There are some wrinkles in the top of the foam, but that amount of water is miniscule and evaporates.
 

jasoutside

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Dec 20, 2009
Messages
13,269
Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats


Youbetcha, towards displacement that allows for drainage and doesn't saturate.

You blame the foam, but it's not the foams fault. That foam is saturated because of poor design/engineering on that boat and neglect by the previous owner.

Agreed. However, the foam is part of the design, so, I'm blaming the whole works and ultimately the man who designed it. I'll also say that this boat was certainly left for dead so it's probably an extreme example of waterlogged foam. However, it brings to light the idea that once water goes sub deck it has nowhere to go. Any amount of water.

that foam wouldn't be saturated had the PO protected his boat from the elements by either covering it or garaging it...

I totally agree again. In my world though, having a boat means that is on the water or outside 100% of it's life. Now I certainly take care of my gear, but, say I prep the boat for a fishing trip the following day, sits in the drive, uncovered, and a major storm rolls in, boat fills with water, where does the water go? Or, my boat is docked for the weekend, uncovered, fills with water, how does the water drain? That foam blocks any kind of positive drainage. That's the problem.

To me, that's just being realistic. I can absolutely guarantee that a ton of water will be dumped in this boat at some point, by accident or something unforeseen. So am I neglecting it? I sure hope not.

Had that transom and deck been sealed properly before installation, it wouldn't have been mushy mulch either... that wasn't the foams fault either.

No way. It would have lasted longer sure, but ultimately trapped water wins. No doubt.

Funny you mention this as I see you constantly recommend that decks remain unsealed on the bottom side. I see that as a very bad idea for this very reason.

There are way to install pour in foam in an aluminum boat that will ensure drainage and prevent the foam from becoming saturated

I would really like to use expanding foam actually. But it seems like there is no way to install it and provide for drainage. It's just the nature of the material.

plug in or without the bow elevated enough to provide proper drainage

That Sea Nymph sits bow high with the plug out in that video, has been since the day I brought it home. The water hasn't moved. At all.

It's a deep V and everything slopes to the center, including the top of the foam. There is clearance between the decking and the top of the foam so the decking doesn't touch the foam.

There are some wrinkles in the top of the foam, but that amount of water is miniscule and evaporates.

On your Tracker...

I can see that design working only if you had drains installed right down the center line of your deck and it was built like a bath tub. But, since the deck sheds water to the sides, it's progress is stopped from getting to the middle by all that foam - some on top and completely under neath. It's a far better set up that what I have in the SN, but still, drainage is stopped from side to center.
 

GT1000000

Rear Admiral
Joined
Jul 13, 2011
Messages
4,916
Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

Pour in foam, hmmmm...even in glassers is not necessarily such a great thing, from what I have seen on Iboats in my short existence here, due to the fact that manufacturers are in it to make a profit, they usually FAIL to completely seal the foam from water intrusion or consistently provide for proper and complete drainage [ I too, will add a 'Disclaimer', and say that this is just my opinion...:redface:]... ...thereby creating more opportunities for new guys with old boats to start restoration threads...:eek::facepalm::D...LOL...
 

magnumdeke

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Apr 13, 2010
Messages
626
Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

So In our tinny's, Does it make sense to use foam board as the bottom layer and then pour expanding over it?? Hopefully leaving a small void under the foam board for water to work it's way through and leaving the limber holes open on the ribs?? That is my plan currently, what do you all think??
 

jasoutside

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Dec 20, 2009
Messages
13,269
Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

Hopefully DJ will swing through. I believe he attempted this method ^^^ and not all that successful. Maybe?
 

djpeters

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Jun 9, 2010
Messages
1,824
Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

Yes I did! In theory it's the perfect setup. Problem is until you pour the foam yourself, you don't realize just how bad it want's to go into every nook and cranny. I tried cutting the foam board and laying it down on the stringers. There is no way in he!! you get a perfect fit. I even used some duct tape and "seamed" the foam board in. Didn't matter, the foam still found a way past. I started up in the bow, layed the foam board in, seamed it, then riveted in the first 4' of deck. I then plugged the runways between the stringers and poured the foam through holes in the deck. This way it was confined and pushed out completely filling the first 4' section. Repeat, Repeat, Repeat, Done. I have NO foam down the center, (check my thread for my douple stringer setup). My reasoning for filling up the outboard two sections was that in 32 years I only had a VERY small amount of wet foam and a very small amount of corrosion. Nothing like Jas' and Dozer are showing.
 

jasoutside

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Dec 20, 2009
Messages
13,269
Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

In theory it's the perfect setup.

Yah, sure sounds like it would have great potential and a good solution. Fist bump for effort on that Dave:)
 

jigngrub

Fleet Admiral
Joined
Mar 19, 2011
Messages
8,155
Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

It would be more difficult to achieve this with the typical Starcraft longitudinal stringer setup.

This is another example poor engineering and design with the manufacturer no allowing for proper drainage.

Youbetcha, towards displacement that allows for drainage and doesn't saturate.

I think you're a urethane foam hater and a noodle lover looking for bad examples to promote your noodles.





I totally agree again. In my world though, having a boat means that is on the water or outside 100% of it's life. Now I certainly take care of my gear, but, say I prep the boat for a fishing trip the following day, sits in the drive, uncovered, and a major storm rolls in, boat fills with water, where does the water go? Or, my boat is docked for the weekend, uncovered, fills with water, how does the water drain? That foam blocks any kind of positive drainage. That's the problem.

My boat is stored outside 100% of the time (covered with a cheap $20 tarp)

We both know that you provide proper drainage when you restore a boat, so this example isn't valid.


To me, that's just being realistic. I can absolutely guarantee that a ton of water will be dumped in this boat at some point, by accident or something unforeseen. So am I neglecting it? I sure hope not.

Exposing urethane foam to water for short periods of time won't hurt it, the exposure has to be prolonged and constant.

My boat and foam have been exposed to thunder storms, launching without the plug in, and washings and the foam is bone dry.



Funny you mention this as I see you constantly recommend that decks remain unsealed on the bottom side. I see that as a very bad idea for this very reason.

If the deck has air space below it and isn't constantly exposed to water for prolonged periods of time it will be fine.


That Sea Nymph sits bow high with the plug out in that video, has been since the day I brought it home. The water hasn't moved. At all.

Because drainage isn't provided, providing proper drainage is easy... just look at the pics.



On your Tracker...

I can see that design working only if you had drains installed right down the center line of your deck and it was built like a bath tub. But, since the deck sheds water to the sides, it's progress is stopped from getting to the middle by all that foam - some on top and completely under neath. It's a far better set up that what I have in the SN, but still, drainage is stopped from side to center.

Actually, it is shaped like a bath tub, the deep V sides slope to the keel and so does the foam. The deck is flat, but the bow sits higher than the stern and this makes all of the water drain to the back of the deck where the deck drain is.

So In our tinny's, Does it make sense to use foam board as the bottom layer and then pour expanding over it?? Hopefully leaving a small void under the foam board for water to work it's way through and leaving the limber holes open on the ribs?? That is my plan currently, what do you all think??

What does your deck framing look like? Is it the elevated ribs that the deck attaches to, or do you have the longitudinal stringers fore to aft that the deck attaches to?
 

magnumdeke

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Apr 13, 2010
Messages
626
Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

"What does your deck framing look like? Is it the elevated ribs that the deck attaches to, or do you have the longitudinal stringers fore to aft that the deck attaches to? "



I have the typical starcraft fore to aft stringer set up
100_0470.jpg




My plan is to raise floor up move stringers out and have a 90" battery tray installed on top of ribs on the center line aft working forward, I would fit foam board between the ribs which would butt up to the bottom / side of the battery compartment and seal the center line of the hull from the expanding foam???? Make sense??
 

djpeters

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Jun 9, 2010
Messages
1,824
Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

In case I wasn't clear earlier, when I did the first pour up in the bow, some foam crept into the very front center keel area. Maybe the first foot or two. My inner stringers form a box up front so none got into the main center area where my ski locker and fuel tank are. So basically there is a two foot wide by the length of the boat down the middle that is open. I made the floor in my ski locker so that it can be removed through the opening if I ever want to take a look see down there.

With that said, I would use the urethane foam again. Here's why.

1. In 32 years 98% of the foam was dry when I dug it out. My boat did leak some too.

2. I wanted the hull to be as quiet as it was. I didn't want to get all done and hear every ripple against the hull. I also didn't want to risk squeaks below deck from the other types.

3. I wanted to know without a doubt that I had enough to float if something catastrophic happens. It's just simple math. All my pours were done last summer under ideal conditions. Under my deck is a 80lb kit and a 16lb kit of 2lb flotation foam from U.S. Composites. That is a total of 48 cubic feet of foam. Each cubic foot floats about 60lbs of dead weight. 48 x 60 = 2880lbs of flotation. Even if I'm off a little on the expansion or whatever, it's way more than needed. Can anyone else post scientific numbers like that? To me it's a no brainier. I agree with whoever said the totally soaked ones must have had some serious help in getting to that point. My boat was owned by an old fisherman and I would have to believe he was caught out in the rain more than a few times. Based on my experience with my boat I just don't see the negatives to pour in foam.
 

carpedium

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Jun 20, 2011
Messages
258
Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

Can anyone else post scientific numbers like that?

I will share what thought process I went through when choosing flotation. I will exclude the previously discussed points like sound, drainage, etc.

At 70 degrees F the density of water is 62.3 lbs/cu. ft.

Pour - in foam physical properties:

2 lb foam weighs 2 lbs/cu. ft.

Therefore, pour-in foam displacing one cu. ft. of water will result in a buoyancy force of 60.3 lbs.

Right off the bat, 5% of the cells are open, and over a period of time more and more cells will become compromised when (not if) exposed to water.

If you use your boat, like Jas says he will, and how I will use mine - water is a fact of life, and it has to be assumed that the flotation will be subject to it constantly for this purpose. If you are fishing in a river or pond, you do not ski or tube, and have garage space - water may not be an issue for you to this extent.

"water submersion can eventually lead to loss of buoyancy over a period of years."

That means that in order for the foam to lose its buoyancy, it will have to absorb exactly 60.3 lbs of water. Lets say this happens over a period of 15 years. This is based on seeing boats of this age with failed foam. Given a constant rate of absorption, the foam will lose 4 lbs per cu.ft. of buoyancy per year. How many years till you potentially reach your tipping point?


Extruded polystyrene physical properties:

Extruded polystyrene has a density 1.3 lbs/cu. ft. per the manufacturers website.

Therefore, extruded polystyrene displacing one cu. ft. of water will result in a buoyancy force of 61 lbs.

99.4% closed cell, and impervious to water per the manufacturer.


Listen. I understand your pour-in foam may never see water and that's fine. Even if your pour-in foam does see water, it may not absorb it. The calcs I used were on the aggressive side, but for me are a realistic basis of risk analysis. For me, when you evaluate the risk you have to stay on the safe side. You think about how you could be clinging on to this thing trying to get rescued 6 miles from shore.
 

Ike-110722

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Sep 3, 2007
Messages
408
Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

A very interesting thread, especially considering I spent years with the USCG testing boats for flotation, and now I am restoring a 1972 Sea Ray, which means I am removing a lot of saturated foam. I also participated in a USCG sponsored research project in 2005 to determine why foam that is not supposed to absorb water, does.

Some history. Two part polyurethane "pour", "spray", "Injection" foam, is supposed to be closed cell, meaning no water absorption. So if it is absorbing water then it is not closed cell. When I first ran the test program back in the mid 80's most of the foam was made to a different formula than the foam used now, and the blowing agents (the stuff that makes it foam) were HCFCs. As most of you probably know the EPA severely limited use of HCFCs in the early 90's because the deplete the ozone layer in the atmosphere. So the foam manufacturers changed the blowing agents and the formulas for the foam. So where is this leading?

Before 1995 we used to see an occasional boat with water absorption, after 1995 it became epidemic. The foam in your boat is supposed to provide adequate flotation up to ten years (that's the law) Prior to 2000 it was 5 years. But now we see new boats with problems.

Several research projects have been done to find out why. The results have been inconclusive. But from almost 30 years of experience here is what I think is happening.

First: Pour foam is sensitive to temperature, humidity, mixing ratios and dirt. In boat factories it is almost always sprayed into a boat using a gun similar to a paint spray gun. The gun has to be calibrated for the right mix ratios and kept clean. This is usually done at the beginning of the day. Twice a day would be better. Also most builders shoot some into a paper bag or cardboard box to test the setup. If it foams they think everything is ok. This may not be so. This is what chemists call an exothermic reaction, that is it generates heat which contributes to the reaction. Too much heat and it foams too fast and breaks all the cells, so you get something that looks like foam on the outside, but if you cut into you see what looks like broken glass. Too little heat and it doesn't foam right and you get what look like cowpies and has the consistency of bread dough. Unfortunately many manufacturers buy this stuff in quantity in 55 gallon drums and store it outside or in an unheated shed or storeroom. They should bring the stuff inside and let it warm to room temperature. But even so in some northern states room temperature is 50 -55 degrees. So the stuff may be too cold. One manufacturer had to recall thousands of boats because of this.

Conversely in southern climes it may be way to warm. Plus that it is supposed to be used in a certain humidity range. In southern climes the humidity may be off the charts.

All of this affects what comes out of the gun and goes into the boat.

On top of that polyurethane is supposedly not affected by gasoline, bilge cleaners, oils etc. But some of the stuff I took out of my boat had been exposed to gasoline and it was black and brittle (But it was forty years old and proably 80% is just fine). So other things in your boat may have affected the foam.

Also boats sit outside most of the time including the winter and go through freeze and thaw cyles that affect the foam. If the foam already has water in it and it freezes and then thaws it does serious damage to the cells. Also it has been mentioned that if the boat fills with water and sits that way for long periods, it certainly isn't good for the foam.

Many years ago the USCG also did a research project on water absorption (I was the project officer) on machine made foam (board, block, or stick foam) Guess what? It had None! of these problems. The problem is, it is hard for the average boat owner to get polyurethane board foam. Construction companies use it, but it is not generally sold to the public. However Polystyrene foam is sold everywhere as insulating foam, in boards usually 2' X 8' by 2 in. It comes in various colors too, White, pink, blue.

The problem with Polystyrene (styrofoam) is it is dissolved by gasoline, oils, cleaners, etc. So if you use it, you have to protect it from this chemicals.

Of course boat manufacturers could do a better job of designing the boat for adequate drainage, or encasing the foam in fiberglass or putting it in a plastic envelope (a bag). There is manufacturer in Australia who has used bagging with great success. There are some US manufacturers who use styrofoam in sealed boxes and that works well too.

My recommendation for many years has been used board foam, and seal it up. That is what I am going to do. Also put in limber holes to drain the hull. Even if you cover your boat, and never swamp it, some water still gets in and needs to be drained away.
 

jbcurt00

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 25, 2011
Messages
25,022
Re: Expanding (pour in) Flotation Foam and Aluminum Boats

Man, Jas, always causing a ruckus:facepalm:

I fall on the sheet foam side of this argument, but NOT styrofoam. But will probably use pool noodles up under & along the gunwales.

If anybody hasn't had the pleasure, here's a shot of my Jet's PO's attempt to maximize floatation:
IMAG0459.jpg


:facepalm:Carp, really,:facepalm:Carp

So, I think I'll be headed in a much better direction w/ the sheet foam. In a nice light blue thank you very much:D
 
Top