1981 Citation Marquis restoration...

[Scott Danforth]

What do you make of this? It's a mess, I know (I tore out (not cut), with my bare hands, a bunch of fiberglass and wet, rotted plywood (i.e. mulch) to get to this point), but I'm trying to figure out if it's been heavily (but poorly) modified from its original design. Why is there a second level (thin, brittle fiberglass and more rotted plywood) under the main floor, down the middle? At least it doesn't go any further down. But I'm trying to figure out what I'm looking at. Is the main floor where it should be or is it higher than it should be? What looks like original stringers/bulkheads and which are not?

looks like a cored hull and the core material is gone.

you do have a cradle that the boat is sitting on, correct? if not, stop now and make a cradle

do yourself a favor, remove the cap, it will make life a lot easier

start by firing up the saws of destruction, remove everything down to good glass

 

[Luposian]

Trying to figure out what the original design/layout was and how it got so messed up.

 

[Luposian]

The boat is on it's trailer. If I pull the cap, will the hull flex outward (i.e. the cap is holding the hull edges together) or will it maintain it's exact same shape (I could easily pop the cap back on with no manipulating) unless/until I start removing stringers/bulkheads, etc.?

 

[chevymaher]

It is set up alot like mine. Google 1981 citation marquis boats. There a few newer ones in the mid 80's pop up you can see interior.

 

[Luposian]

It is set up alot like mine. Google 1981 citation marquis boats. There a few newer ones in the mid 80's pop up you can see interior.

You have a Citation Marquis? Or are you saying they're similar to yours, which is not a Citation Marquis?

 

[chevymaher]

I have a four winns horizon. But the hull looks the same. The interior is very similar. All boats back then were alot alike., Stringer set up is almost identical.

 

[Luposian]

I'm trying to figure out if I can get away with not having to "trench out" (dig out) the foam in the bow. Yeah, the plywood is rotted up there, too, but no one is gonna be standing on the fiberglass up under the console, so does it really HAVE to be replaced? The port/starboard stringers sound and feel pretty solid, but that may be just the fiberglass talking. The aft bulkhead definitely needs to be replaced. I'm looking at having to do all of this myself and if the hull is intact (which I believe it is), then the only water that would get in, to do anything, would be from splash-in from the outside, as I plan to replace the transom and seal it up and make the boat an outboard or similar. Any it's gonna just be a lake putter til the day I die, so... Taking care of a boat is the first step in preventing wood rot, in the first place. This "outta sight, outta mind" way of thinking is the surest way to have yer boat end up like this one.

 

[chevymaher]

If it is rotted the foam is wet. If you dont do it. Think of it this way. You buy a loaf of bread. Would you put a moldy piece of bread in it from the bad loaf. No it would mold fast right. Same thing. If you leave rot it is going to spread like mold in a loaf of bread.

 

[Scott Danforth]

you have a nearly 40 year old boat. you have to pull everything out and start over

your stringers left the factory as you see them. that is what the build quality was in the 80's

you still are at the tear down stage. hope you built a cradle

once you cut everything out, you then use a respirator and a full tyvek suit and you grind.....and grind.....and grind....and grind...... and when you think you ground enough, grind some more.

 

[Luposian]

you have a nearly 40 year old boat. you have to pull everything out and start over

your stringers left the factory as you see them. that is what the build quality was in the 80's

you still are at the tear down stage. hope you built a cradle

once you cut everything out, you then use a respirator and a full tyvek suit and you grind.....and grind.....and grind....and grind...... and when you think you ground enough, grind some more.

Wait a second... the port/starboard stringers are the most solid part of the boat. They feel and sound quite solid. But, like I said, maybe that's just the fiberglass talking. The height of the port/starboard stringers looks to be about 4" and the width about 2"... could I replace them with 2x4's? I'm definitely not going with plywood again.

The fore and aft bulkheads, tho... THOSE aren't factory, right? They look way too sloppy (and the aft one looks totally rotted (most of the fiberglass on the back side is missing, too!). And the two indents in the port/starboard stringers... were there bulkheads there originally?

You say I need to build a cradle. The trailer isn't enough? Or do I need to build a cradle while the cap is on, so that when I remove the cap, the hull doesn't "foomph!" out to the sides? Is the cap holding the edges of the hull together? Are there any cradle designs that are adjustable, so I'm not just building a cradle for just THIS boat, but it can be adjusted to fit other boats? Resale value, yaknow. :-D

 

[Scott Danforth]

no, you cant use dimensional lumber - plywood is 400% stronger

yes, that is most likely original shoddy 80's workmanship

no, usually the trailer is not enough, and yes, prior to pulling the cap. you can build the cradle on the trailer if your trailer is sturdy enough.

cradles are fit to each boat. its literally under $50 worth of plywood and lumber and screws.

 

[Luposian]

If it is rotted the foam is wet. If you dont do it. Think of it this way. You buy a loaf of bread. Would you put a moldy piece of bread in it from the bad loaf. No it would mold fast right. Same thing. If you leave rot it is going to spread like mold in a loaf of bread.

If you dig the rotted foam out (like in pic) and space (air gap) the good plywood away (say, 1/2"-1") from the rotted plywood (edge of rotted plywood shown under fiberglass in second pic), so that there is no direct moisture/wicking of rot/wetness, could this not be sufficient to prevent wetness/rot from spreading into the good plywood? Provided there is no hull leak and no water on deck soaks in via holes in the floor, whatever existing moisture is left in the bow section surely can't create MORE rot through the rest of the floor... it would have to have an existing/continuing source to "grow" from.

Logically speaking, if you have a drop of water on a piece of paper, you can wick that drop from point to point, but it no longer exists at the previous point, Mold can grow, but only in the presence of moisture sufficient for survival/continuance. Mold can spore, but those spores can only grow in the presence of moisture. If there is no moisture where they land, they don't grow.

If you properly seal the plywood (with epoxy resin and fiberglass) prior to installation, moisture can't get in anyways, can it?

I'm not trying to ignore a valid problem, just to save money/time. I'm trying to see if my theory is sound. If I can get another 20-30 years out of this boat (I'm 51, so I'm not expecting to live much longer than that, provided Jesus doesn't come back before then), but not have to spend $10K+ and 6+ months of work) in the process, to do so, why not? This boat doesn't need to be made "like new", just sufficiently usable again. It's gonna be a lake putter around the local lakes for fun. Nothing more. Nothing less.

 

[jbcurt00]

Simply put, no, your reasoning isnt sound

If the foam is wet, and you've partially removed spme of the foam, its no longer capable of doing its job, carries extra weight and creates a toxic environment. I wouldnt want any of that trapped below decks on a boat I use and allow friends/family aboard.....

Wanna meet your maker unnecessarily early?

 

[Luposian]

Simply put, no, your reasoning isnt sound

If the foam is wet, and you've partially removed spme of the foam, its no longer capable of doing its job, carries extra weight and creates a toxic environment. I wouldnt want any of that trapped below decks on a boat I use and allow friends/family aboard.....

Wanna meet your maker unnecessarily early?

I don't understand your logic. The foam is obviously added in by whoever owned the boat previously. It's now more or less a brown sponge. It's not bouyant (light, water repellant) material anymore. It's also not stock insert from the factory... it can't be. It's THAT badly done. How can removing some of it make the boat unsafe? Adding foam doesn't make the boat lighter... it makes it more buoyant (less likely to sink), IF it were to capsize or something. But it can't even do that anymore! The pink sheets in the middle section (I can show pics, if you like) were still intact, but that alone couldn't save the boat, since the boat would be much heavier than just a couple sheets of pink insulating foam (for houses!).

The foam doesn't smell musty or moldy. It's just brown, crunchy, water-logged worthlessness. So I don't see how it can be a danger to have less of it.

 

[jbcurt00]

I stand by my earlier post.

To reuse a prior bread analogy: put a brand new slice of bread in a clean, never used before bag. Just before closing up the bag air tight, put an old (but dry, not toasted, w no evidence of mold) slice at the other end of the bag. Seal it well, ensuring slices never come into contact w each other. Put them in a dark room for a year or 3. Occassionally mist the exterior of the bag w water.

And wait..... see what happens.....


Else, your boat, do as you see fit.

Just because its lasted X yrs done poorly, by the factory or prior owner, is no gauge to how long it'll last left alone, or remodified by you taking foam out.

You'd shouldnt be surprised how shoddy some boats are built when you tear into 1 and expose stuff never intended to ever be seen again once the upper and lower hull went together.

Think of the 10-15yr service life the boat was built for. Your 1981 is nearly 40yrs old, well past its planned obsolescence expiration date.......

Good luck w your project

 

[kcassells]

Yo Lupe me and jbcurt are like boating brothers. Sometimes we agree, sometimes we don't and most times I get kicked off the forum. But in this case he is absolutely correct. Dig out that crap if not only to see what other crap is in there. that may need attention.
Clean it up and be done with it will ya!:joyous: Oh you guys!

 

[Mad Props]

 

[kcassells]

I see no sense of separation anxiety. JB is CORRECT is all I'm saying. I agree to agree 100%.
Put a hat backwards on that guy, little stubble gruff and that guy could be you!

 

[Luposian]

I stand by my earlier post.

To reuse a prior bread analogy: put a brand new slice of bread in a clean, never used before bag. Just before closing up the bag air tight, put an old (but dry, not toasted, w no evidence of mold) slice at the other end of the bag. Seal it well, ensuring slices never come into contact w each other. Put them in a dark room for a year or 3. Occassionally mist the exterior of the bag w water.

And wait..... see what happens.....


Else, your boat, do as you see fit.

Just because its lasted X yrs done poorly, by the factory or prior owner, is no gauge to how long it'll last left alone, or remodified by you taking foam out.

You'd shouldnt be surprised how shoddy some boats are built when you tear into 1 and expose stuff never intended to ever be seen again once the upper and lower hull went together.

Think of the 10-15yr service life the boat was built for. Your 1981 is nearly 40yrs old, well past its planned obsolescence expiration date.......

Good luck w your project

Ok, I kinda get your point... hence more thoroughly explained... however, what good is foam if it can no longer provide the floatation it once did? What good will dry, crunchy sponges do for the boat, if left in there? Water passes right through it and they get soggy! I see no value whatsoever. And I see only bad news, if you put dry wood on top of them, permitting the moisture they contain to wick into the new plywood.

And using the bread analogy is a little bit flawed. Bread is made with yeast... yeast is a type of mold! Last time I checked, foam and wood are not MADE with yeast. Therefore, they are not intrinsicly prone to going moldy, if given sufficient moisture.. or time, itself. Yes, wet plywood will rot over time with continual exposure, but assuming that exposure is limited and the boat is cared for, I imagine further decay would be very limited.

And I still don't see how the boat is rendered unsafe (or even worse than before) in this approach I'm mentioning. How is it made unsafe? The amount of foam in the boat is minimal, at best, and poorly applied, for sure. And it's worthless now. The boat, if capsized, would sink just as quickly with the existing foam, than without, so how is there any benefit even keeping it in there? At the very least, replacing it with new foam would be a better idea...

Thankfully, the hull/cap are in better shape than the floor was... :-D

 

[Grub54891]

Ok. Seems you are going to rebuild it the way you intended, any advice from people who have rebuilt boats correctly, including me, don't mean much to you. So with that said, I will not give my opinion on what should or should not be done.