NGK vs Champion plugs/ hard to start fixed

[SparkieBoat]

Re: NGK vs Champion plugs/ hard to start fixed

i may just do that..i should have asked you guys before buying the NGKs. I heard they are a hotter plug, is that why you would have to rejet the carbs?? maybe larger jets?? I really appreciate all of the help I have recieved in this forum, it has been invaluable.

 

[bktheking]

Re: NGK vs Champion plugs/ hard to start fixed

I worked in the auto industry for many years, all vendors be it Champion or NGK or Autolite all sell equivalent plugs. Let's face it, a spark plug is a spark plug. As long as the reach is the same and the plug temp is the same they will all work. These big manufacturers get in bed with a company like Champion who give them the best price for plugs on their new motors swear in the manual that you have to use them. IMO that's BS and marketing, I've ran all different plugs in all different motors and not had one blow up, that's why they sell equivalent plugs, if they didn't work there would be class action lawsuits being filed everyday against the plug manufacturers with claims that their plugs were blowing motors up. You can get the same heat range and reach plug in NGK for your boat and not have to touch a thing, rejetting included. (I didn't know boats were rejetted for plugs, though that was more of a fart can/air filter change on a motorcycle engine type of deal, maybe a racing outboard if you make a pile of changed)

That's like saying you can't run NGK's in your ford mustang, you have to run Motorcraft or AC delco in your GM truck.

Now if you want to get into platinum and iridium or copper core plugs, surface and non surface gap, that is a whole other discussion.

 

[kenmyfam]

Re: NGK vs Champion plugs/ hard to start fixed

I worked in the auto industry for many years, all vendors be it Champion or NGK or Autolite all sell equivalent plugs. Let's face it, a spark plug is a spark plug. As long as the reach is the same and the plug temp is the same they will all work. These big manufacturers get in bed with a company like Champion who give them the best price for plugs on their new motors swear in the manual that you have to use them. IMO that's BS and marketing, I've ran all different plugs in all different motors and not had one blow up, that's why they sell equivalent plugs, if they didn't work there would be class action lawsuits being filed everyday against the plug manufacturers with claims that their plugs were blowing motors up.

That's like saying you can't run NGK's in your ford mustang, you have to run Motorcraft or AC delco in your GM truck.

Now if you want to get into platinum and iridium or copper core plugs, surface and non surface gap, that is a whole other discussion.

Have to disagree with this but I am going back over 30 years to my 2 stroke motorcycle days. I ran Yamaha motorcycles on the "equivalent" NGK and had nothing but trouble. Centre insulation breaking down and landing on top of the pistons. Not just on one occasion either. Back to champs and all was well again. Others had the same issues.
Things may well be different now though.

 

[bktheking]

Re: NGK vs Champion plugs/ hard to start fixed

I'm sure they have come along way in 30 yrs, manufacturing processes are way better today then they were back then. I wonder out of curiosity if that same plug number 30 yrs ago has been replaced by a newer number or a different plug.

 

[northernmerc]

Re: NGK vs Champion plugs/ hard to start fixed

Very interesting discussion! I also had no idea that OMCs should only run Champions and Mercs only NGKs. I'm still a little skeptical; some hard data would help settle the matter. There must be reliable studies available on the topic??

 

[northernmerc]

Re: NGK vs Champion plugs/ hard to start fixed

Found another discussion on this topic at:

http://www.wmi.org/bassfish/bassboard/boats_motors/message.html?message_id=188390

Hmmmmmm

 

[reelfishin]

Re: NGK vs Champion plugs/ hard to start fixed

From past experience, I've had many OMC outboards that just don't run right for long on NGK or other brands. I've always ended up going back to the original Champion plug.

I've been an auto/truck mechanic for over 25 years, there are very few applications where I'd run a Champion plug, but they do seem to work well in the OMC and older Chrysler outboards.

Along the same lines, I've had no luck with them in several Honda or Yamaha outboards.

Although I can't say why they do or don't work in some applications, I would think that so long as the spark plug was advertised to fit a particular application, it's not likely that any damage would be done by it. I have seen cases where various companies will not have a direct interchange for another brand plug, or where one number replaces many, I would be leery about the listing in those cases.

 

[itsaboattime]

Re: NGK vs Champion plugs/ hard to start fixed

I have ran Champion plugs is lots of small engines. From a weed eater to an old 4 cylinder Wisconsin. While I can't say I never had a problem, I can say that they pretty much performed in the manner they were intended.

I have to agree with BKTHEKING, if the plugs cross referance, are the same heat range, and do the job, run them. As long as there is no warrentee issue.

I have a hard time believing that the problem was solved because the plugs were NGK. I do believe it was solved because the plugs were new.

 

[Rocky_Road]

Re: NGK vs Champion plugs/ hard to start fixed

i have removed them numerous times over the last couple of months, the socket part did look new before

You do realize that the plugs in your picture have the compression gasket...and they are designed to only be torqued one time? You mentioned that you have removed, and reinstalled, them "numerous" times....

You may have been experiencing some compression loss from reusing them...and that (as well as their age) could have been part of your issues.

New plugs, of any brand, would have probably made your day!

Happy boating!

 

[ondarvr]

Re: NGK vs Champion plugs/ hard to start fixed

Have to disagree with this but I am going back over 30 years to my 2 stroke motorcycle days. I ran Yamaha motorcycles on the "equivalent" NGK and had nothing but trouble. Centre insulation breaking down and landing on top of the pistons. Not just on one occasion either. Back to champs and all was well again. Others had the same issues.
Things may well be different now though.

30 years ago most Yamahas used an NGK B8ES (or EV, better), a 9 was cooler and a 7 hotter. I started racing Yamahas in 1972 and used NGK's about 90% of the time, I can't think of a single plug failure the whole time (last race was in 1999). If you had the same problem time after time there must have been other issues. I think the Champion was an N3 and N3G.

I've used Champions and the equivalent NGK in my 90HP Evinrude and they aren't the exact same heat range, the plug reading was different when comparing the two, not a big difference, but they were different. I just use the Champions in all my JE's now, the Mercs get NGK's.

 

[kenmyfam]

Re: NGK vs Champion plugs/ hard to start fixed

30 years ago most Yamahas used an NGK B8ES (or EV, better), a 9 was cooler and a 7 hotter. I started racing Yamahas in 1972 and used NGK's about 90% of the time, I can't think of a single plug failure the whole time (last race was in 1999). If you had the same problem time after time there must have been other issues. I think the Champion was an N3 and N3G.

I've used Champions and the equivalent NGK in my 90HP Evinrude and they aren't the exact same heat range, the plug reading was different when comparing the two, not a big difference, but they were different. I just use the Champions in all my JE's now, the Mercs get NGK's.

I seem to remember the plug being an L-81 ???? (could be wrong though) NGK equivalent broke down, champion ran fine. (NGK were a little cheaper to buy in England at the time)

 

[wellsc1]

Re: NGK vs Champion plugs/ hard to start fixed

I haven't compared Champion and NGK for outboards, but do have an experience for snowmobiles. I found NGK to work better than Champion in snowmobiles. Although temperature of environement is different, both snowmobiles and outboards experience temperature swings and moisture conditions (melting snow versus marine water). For outboards and snowmobiles, I'm an NGK fan. For cars, I'm a Champion fan. That's how spittin' on my bait works for me. Sounds like a good poll to post.

 

[mafhuntfish]

Re: NGK vs Champion plugs/ hard to start fixed

I just did a tune up on an '89 Evinrude 88 spl. The owner brought me new Autolite plugs for it & I checked to make sure that they were the correct ones for this motor. After everything else was done I installed the plugs and the motor wouldn't fire at all. I cleaned up the old Champions and regapped them & it fired & purred like a kitten. ALL of my OMCs get champions - even if they come in with a new set of another brand.

 

[Faztbullet]

Re: NGK vs Champion plugs/ hard to start fixed

Just my $.02... I install NGK's in all my personal and customer water toys. I have used them for over 20 years and have never seen one melt a piston,damage a cylinder, foul or misfire due to the plug. I have seen the above due to dirty carbs,advanced timing,water in fuel ,cracked coils and bad wires. I suggest you run what you have faith in,I run NGK as my supplier carries nearly all in stock, it is a quality plug and the $$... and dont knock Denso as they are very good plug also.

 

[Knightgang]

Re: NGK vs Champion plugs/ hard to start fixed

My Suzuki calls for NGKs. That is all I have run in it. I did nto even realize that they have NGKs for automotive applications outside of imports... I am considering putting them in my Chevy...

I always thought that the NGKs ran hotter, but after reading a clip from the NGK website, the plugs are manufactured for a given heat range to match the application.

I have used champions in the past and always thought of them as good plugs. I still use them in my lawn equipment, because that is what is recommended, but i am considering changing that too... Champions are almost never recommended for auto applications anymore. At the O'Rielly's I work at, we have a very small selection of Champion, and mostly for small engine applications and outboard applications...

 

[jonesg]

Re: NGK vs Champion plugs/ hard to start fixed

I consider the pros who post here to be the experts, they work on outboards all week long and see more innards in a week than I'll see in 2 lifetimes.

They've said it repeatedly, they see a fair share of melted pistons on engines running non Champion plugs, engines with no other discernable problems.

Obviously conditions play a big role but I like the peace of mind.
Champion plugs in my V6 fire it up in 3 seconds max.
Its what the factory manual calls for.
Ya can't beat success.

 

[SparkieBoat]

Re: NGK vs Champion plugs/ hard to start fixed

Isn't a suzuki the same as an OMC??? Man I never thought my post would start all this..like posting a Chevy vs Ford topic in a truck forum...LOL well you all stay up later than me. someone mentioned the compression rings on the plugs were only meant to be torqued one time. Is this true?? seems plugs are always being removed for one reason or another. I thought your could re torque a set of plugs multiple times. And maybe I did see a big improvement just because the plugs are new and not just because of the brand name. I just didnt think my old plugs were that old, I am pretty sure the previous owner had just replaced them before selling. But it does seem to me that NGK has produced this plug specifically for this motor and has made it with the required specs including heat range so I will try them for a while and see. thanks again for all of the input.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: NGK vs Champion plugs/ hard to start fixed

I always thought that the NGKs ran hotter, but after reading a clip from the NGK website, the plugs are manufactured for a given heat range to match the application.

...

That's the issue, its a range, plugs of different brands may be close, but they aren't exactly the same, they may be hotter or colder than the one specified for the motor. This may, or may not, be a problem, it depends on the engine and how it gets used, some are very picky on heat range and some aren't.

 

[reelmess]

Re: NGK vs Champion plugs/ hard to start fixed

The brand of spark plug can definitely make a difference. Years ago I was driving a Mercury Grand Marquis with a 5.0L engine. I had bought the car with a motor problem, swapped in a used engine which haunted me with a slight miss for years. It had gotten a fresh tune up from the point of install along with any other maintenance items due at that time. The new to me motor had only 11,550 miles on it. I had driven the donor car home and it ran fine. I had never driven the Mercury until the motor was changed.

I had installed 8 new Bosch platinum plugs, thinking that I was prolonging the next tune up. I chased the running problem, which was minor but annoying, for years. Time came for a tune up, I installed a set of Autolite platinum plugs this time. The miss got so bad it wasn't drivable. Not at all thinking it was a plug problem went through every sort of diag test in the book, but found nothing. It felt more like a lean miss than anything else.
I let the car sit for a year or more since I had been given a new company car. After leaving that job, I went about reviving the old Mercury till a new car arrived, I found that some critters had eated the plug wires, so again, it got new plugs and wires. This time, the only source I found for parts was the dealer, so in went brand new Motorcraft plugs and wires. I didn't drive the car much at first, but soon realized that the miss was gone. The car ran better than it ever did. The only different change was the Motorcraft plugs, which this time were not platinum either. I ran that car for another 7 years with no problems till finally selling it last year, still with that last set of plugs.

I had a similar issue with a set of Autolite plugs in my truck, which at the time, I couldn't find OEM Motorcraft plugs for, it ran just plain bad with the new Autolite plugs, so bad that I finally put the old plugs back in and ordered the OEM spec Motorcraft plugs. Up until that point, I had always figured that the Autolite and Motorcraft plugs were one in the same but apparently that's no longer the case.

What I noticed was that in that case, if I cross refferenced the OEM plug number to Autolite, it gave me the Autolite number I had used, but if I cross referenced the Autolite number through the Motorcraft catalog, I got a different plug number. I found this with several brands.

I have mostly all Johnson/Evinrude motors, they all run Champion plugs with the exception of one 15hp that for whatever reason likes NGK plugs, it had a set in it when I got it, I tried a set of OEM plugs but it didn't run or start as well. I went back to the NGK plugs. I do believe it's got a pair of aftermarket coils on it too.

 

[bktheking]

Re: NGK vs Champion plugs/ hard to start fixed

That and a lot of people think plugs are "pre gapped". Usually bad running is equated to just throwing in a set of plugs without adjustment. I learned this the hard way, threw in a set in my 84 TBIRD 302, ran like caca, misfired , no power. I was told at the time that the plugs were pregapped. I checked under the hood, if memory serves they were supposed to be gapped at .044 and they were pregapped out of the package at .030, I pulled them, regapped and it ran like a champ. Always check the gap and straighten the electrode, plugs get dropped in shipping/in the store and can be bought with bad gap.