What is the Flame-Thrower replacement # for 18-5438 ignition coil?

DeepBlue2010

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I have 7.4 + Bravo 3 with TB ignition. I want to replace my coil or at least carry a spare with me. I read very good reviews on the Flame-Thrower and I also read that it used to be recommended here on the forum all the time. I can find replacement part numbers for different makes but not the Flame-Thrower. Any one knows?


Also while we are at it, what is the output voltage of the Mercruiser coil? Thanks in advance
 

Bondo

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I want to replace my coil or at least carry a spare with me.

Ayuh,.... I ain't gonna tell ya that coils never go bad,....

But, I will tell ya coil failure is R a r e,....
100s of 1,000s of perfectly good coils are tossed every year by guys wishin' they were mechanics because it's "Easy",.....
If they'd just Diagnose their issue, those perfectly good coils wouldn't get thrown away,....

2ndary voltage relates to plug gap, not so much performance,...
Donno what Merc's is,.... enough to fire the spark plugs,....
 

DeepBlue2010

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Thanks Bondo. My coil was arching during the season and I changed the wires. Just accounting for the possibility that the arching might have cracked the coil wall, that is all. In such case and if I hear it, I would like to have it onboard. Not sure where I would be if/when this happen.
 

airshot

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Go directly to the mfg of the flamethrower coils or an authorized distributor and ask for a recommendation based on your stock coil number. I used summit racing and they were happy to recommend a replacement model. I told them the engine/make/size and non resistor requirement and they told me which model to use. Yours may utilize the newer type coils where as mine is just a standard canister type coil.
 

Chad Flaugher

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I just converted my ignition system from points to electric ignition, and decided to upgrade to the Flamethrower coil to "complete" the upgrade since it's relatively inexpensive and incredibly easy. Old coil was 20,000 volts, now it's running 40,000 volts. Should be a cleaner hotter burn with slightly more performance and fuel economy. The conversion did fix my problem, but I'm pretty sure mine was points related. I agree with airshot, go strait to the mfg. I think there are only about 3 or 4 options.
 

bruceb58

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Old coil was 20,000 volts, now it's running 40,000 volts. Should be a cleaner hotter burn with slightly more performance and fuel economy. The conversion did fix my problem, but I'm pretty sure mine was points related. I agree with airshot, go strait to the mfg. I think there are only about 3 or 4 options.
Just replacing your coil to a different voltage coil output is not going to change the voltage of the spark. The voltage of the spark depends on how the much coil is saturated and the gap of the spark plug. If all you do is change the coil, the voltage will be EXACTLY the same. You aren't accomplishing anything by changing the coil except making your wallet lighter.

Sorry..but high voltage coils are out there because of marketing. You aren't going to get any more power or MPG. Same reason going from points to electronic doesn't gain you any power or MPG.

A coil will go bad if you have a bad cap, spark plug wires or improperly gapped spark plugs. What happens is the coil gets saturated and has no where for the energy to go but the closest ground. Sometimes, the closest ground ends up being the primaries separated by the thin wall between the primary winding as and secondary winding and you get a hole blown through it.
 
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burtonrider11

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The "flame thrower" coil that is a direct replacement for my 1997 5.7 2bbl Merc is a Pertronix 45011. I am ordering one this spring to install. My current coil is probably just fine. However, since I don't know the service history and I've already changed out the cap, rotor, plugs and wires, I am thinking can't hurt. I'll keep the old one as a spare.....If you do change it out, please let us know how it works!
 

gm280

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So many of these after market gadgets fire up the customers more then the spark plugs. Marketing is so amazing. List your new product as the highest voltage output and you will sell them like hotcakes. But in all honesty, it isn't only the automotive market that does that. It is every market for so many products. The "more is better" syndrome gets it every time. A properly turned points ignition system will work as good as the best after market electronic system does. But don't tell everybody that...it is a secret.

Once you fire off the gas/air flame front in the cylinder, it is all over regardless how much voltage was available. And in some cases a higher spark voltage can break down at the weakest component in the ignition circuit. Plug wires can only handle so much before their insulation gives way. One little pin hole in the insulation and it is all over. JMHO!
 

DeepBlue2010

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Guy, I was asking for the rated output voltage to try to stay as close to it as much as I can. It is my personal preference to stay close to original designs unless I understand fully all the variables involved in changing it and still maintain the same system "balance" the original designer was striving for. I took the Flame-Thrower recommendation from the I/O Mercruiser forum actually not from any flashy marketing brochures; and I hold the experts advice on that forum in a high regards. If they say they trust it or recommend it over the original so this is what I will do.

With that said, I am surprised to hear the feedback that there is no advantage of higher output ignition coil. It is my understanding that the spark duration is directly affected by the ignition coil output voltage and spark duration directly affect engine starting. Also,as the spark plug becomes fouled, the extra energy will help compensating and still jump that gap avoiding misfiring. What I am missing?
 
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bruceb58

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Unless you change spark plugs and change the gap to be wider, you will see no benefit. The voltage of the spark is a function of the gap(compression and a few other things as well) and what voltage is needed to jump the gap. You could have a 200,000V coil and it will still be the exact same spark voltage.

If you are having problems with spark plugs getting fouled, you have other issues that need to be addressed. At start, the voltage needed to ignite the fuel is actually lower than at high RPMs so you have that backwards.
 
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gm280

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Deep, let me see if I can make this a little more understandable. For the sake of this example, let's say it take 10,000 volts to jump a 1/8" spark gap. So you buy a coil capable of producing 40,000 volts. At what voltage does the spark jump that same 1/8" gap? If you said 10,000 volts, you are the winner. Does that make it a little clearer? But lets say the higher voltage fines a pin hold in the spark plug wire leading to the actual spark plug. What do you think is the chances of it jumping through that pin hole to ground?

A really good interesting thing to understand is the typical power pole workers. Each day before going out to work on the very high voltage power lines, they take their insulated gloves and have them tested to verify there are ZERO pin holes in them. Because even one little pin hole spells electrocution to the wearer if contacting high voltage power. JMHO!
 

Chad Flaugher

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Just replacing your coil to a different voltage coil output is not going to change the voltage of the spark. The voltage of the spark depends on how the much coil is saturated and the gap of the spark plug. If all you do is change the coil, the voltage will be EXACTLY the same. You aren't accomplishing anything by changing the coil except making your wallet lighter.

Sorry..but high voltage coils are out there because of marketing. You aren't going to get any more power or MPG. Same reason going from points to electronic doesn't gain you any power or MPG.

A coil will go bad if you have a bad cap, spark plug wires or improperly gapped spark plugs. What happens is the coil gets saturated and has no where for the energy to go but the closest ground. Sometimes, the closest ground ends up being the primaries separated by the thin wall between the primary winding as and secondary winding and you get a hole blown through it.


Touche'! The last time I took my boat out for the end of year fishing trip, she wouldn't start. Blew the whole darn day. When I got her back to the shop, I couldn't detect spark, and I could detect power. I changed/upgraded the whole system for around $200. Plugs, cap, electric ignition, coil etc. I set the timing, and set the gap on the plugs slightly more than stock, she ran like a top.

My boat is over 40 years old, and now the coil will never be suspect to failure, I'll never have to set the gap or replace the points, and I'll never have to time it. If I have to do anything, it'll be changing the plugs in several years. (In theory of course) That was the true motivation, any gains would just be a bonus. To me, that alone was well worth $200.
 

airshot

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I find this quite interesting, when I was having problems with a weak spark and replaced all the electrical items involved in creating a spark with NO improvement it was "highly" recommended on this forum to use the flame thrower coil. I did just that and found exceptional improvement. I am now capable of jumping a gap much farther and hotter spark than prior with a stock coil. I have not had one single starting issue or running issue since the flame thrower coil was added due to the numerous recommendations of this forum. I have sold this idea to many others with the same improvement. Now all I hear is what a bad idea this is !!! Guess what...it worked excellent for me so no matter what the book says I am sold..
 

DeepBlue2010

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Deep, let me see if I can make this a little more understandable. For the sake of this example, let's say it take 10,000 volts to jump a 1/8" spark gap. So you buy a coil capable of producing 40,000 volts. At what voltage does the spark jump that same 1/8" gap? If you said 10,000 volts, you are the winner. Does that make it a little clearer? But lets say the higher voltage fines a pin hold in the spark plug wire leading to the actual spark plug. What do you think is the chances of it jumping through that pin hole to ground?

A really good interesting thing to understand is the typical power pole workers. Each day before going out to work on the very high voltage power lines, they take their insulated gloves and have them tested to verify there are ZERO pin holes in them. Because even one little pin hole spells electrocution to the wearer if contacting high voltage power. JMHO!

Gm280, I really do appreciate you taking the time and try to explain this in layman's terms. However, I have a degree in electrical engineering from one of the top 10 schools on the planet and I did start my career as an electrical engineer designing and building automatic control systems for few years. Granted, this was over 20 years ago and I am a little rusted now after all of these years in the software engineering domain away from EE but I still do remember my basics.

First, saying that in the start (cold) condition requires a lower voltage than in normal operating temperature goes against everything I know about the subject. When the engine is cold and the fuel mixture ratios are not nominal, this will require stronger and longer lasting spark from the ignition system to ignite the mixture and start the engine. That is why we keep cranking and cranking until it finally fires.

Second, under an operating condition that will requires, 20KV to generate a spark, for example, a coil with a maximum potential output of 50KV ? while it will not actually generate this voltage ? it will however maintain the spark 3 times longer than a coil with max potential output of 20KV. In other words, the spark duration will triple while holding everything else constant. Same plug gap, same voltage required to generate the spark, same cylinder pressure, etc. It is not a question of output voltage, this will remain the same. But rather it is a question of stored energy, this however is not the same.

This can actually be proven mathematically but I will not bore the people here with the math.

Longer spark duration equal more efficient burn. Some folks confuse the internal combustion engine with an internal explosion engine which doesn?t actually exist. It combust the charge, it doesn?t explode it. So, claiming that once the spark is presented to the mixture it is all over is treating the situation as if we are designating a bomb while in reality we are initiating a burn of the air/fuel mixture. This burn is not optimal in all conditions and the effeciency of the burn is function of (among so many different things) how much fuel we were able to ignite initially which in turn is a function the spark duration. The longer time the spark will remain the more mixture will ignite which will lead to a cleaner more efficient burn which will translate to more engine efficiency.

Third, when the condition of the spark plug changes (becomes fouled or the gap increases) the higher output coil will still be able to jump this gap sparing us a misfire. Now, I am not advocating for skipping maintenance or ignoring the root cause of the problem, of course the problem needs attention and should be addressed. But $h!t happens and until we get to it and solve the problem, I would appreciate the extra strength that will spare me some misfiring while I am trying to make it back home.

Fourth, it takes only 1000V AC to ionize air under normal atmospheric pressure and make it conduct electricity according to Paschen's Law if I still remember my physics. Your grill lighter can generate a spark with that voltage. So, if your insulator is compromised with a pin hole in the circuit that will be a path of least resistance to discharge the coil, it will not matter if your output is 50KV, 40KV,30KV or 20KV. All of them will use it as a path of least resistance and you will lose the spark.

Finally, and again, I assure you I am not offended by any shape or form by your attempt to explain and simplify. I mentioned my background for two reasons only
  • For you to feel free to get more technical if you are so inclined without worrying about this being a foreign language to me.
  • So I don?t come across as someone who is arguing without knowledge or just for the heck of it. I was actually determined to just let it go and move on but just couldn?t I guess.
Thanks all of taking the time and share your experience. As always much appreciated.
 
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Chad Flaugher

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WOW... It's fun to see the difference in opinions! If we could all post our independent test results, we'd actually have a base to base our opinions. Fact is, we don't, so thanks for sharing!
 

DeepBlue2010

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What exactly from my post that you consider not based on facts?! And what are these facts you are refereing to?
 
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gm280

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Deep, I surely hope you didn't take my meager attempt to explain the issue in simplistic terms as anything but trying to help out. When any of us make a comment, we have no idea what the person knows, their educational level or even their knowledge of the subject. So taking a more simple approach is the only thing we can do to get a point across. By no means was it meant to be anything but that attempt.

If you have the time, look up Jacob's Electronics and read his take on internal combustion engine technology. You will find it very interesting. JMHO!
 

DeepBlue2010

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gm, I assure you I didn't. You took out of your time to help a complete stranger and for that I thank you. I tried to lookup this site you mentioned and I was taken to an Australian domain, is this what you was referring to? It is funny that their site says ? in the about us section ? Forget the rest, we are the best. In any event, I couldn?t find any link to articles or blogs on this site. If you can shoot me a link, I would appreciate that.
 
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