Schematic Help!

trollhole

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Sep 19, 2001
Messages
423
I need help in finding out and easy way to convert 12volts in a boat to 3.5 volts to use on a set oh High Intensity L.E.D. any body got any simple answers? Thanks :D
 

SpinnerBait_Nut

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Aug 25, 2002
Messages
17,651
Re: Schematic Help!

I would think you would have to have a step down tranformer of some kind to get the voltage down to where you want it, but that is just a guess.
 

grandx

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
May 21, 2001
Messages
383
Re: Schematic Help!

I'm not schematic, but maybe he will concur...<br /><br />LED requires 3.5 volts<br />You have 12 volts handy<br /><br />12V - 3.5V = 8.5 volts<br /><br />8.5V/LED current draw (Amps)= Resistance (ohms)<br /><br />You'll find the LED current draw on the LED package, once you determine the resistance required, simply wire the appropriate resistor in series with the (+) leg of the LED. If you can't find the exact resistor, wire as many as needed in series until the total Resistance adds up to what is needed. <br /><br />When the motor is running, your charging system is probably supplying 14 Volts or so, so you may figure the resistance required using 14V instead of 12V. Surely the LED has a range of volts it can handle, probably better to add a little extra resistance than not enough. Also Resistors are commonly +/- 5-10 % of rating.<br /><br />Hope this helps, should be an easy fix.
 

Scoop

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Jul 19, 2002
Messages
1,158
Re: Schematic Help!

I concur with Grandx. <br />The LED has a current limit and has a voltage drop not a set resistance. The LED will drop either .7V or .3V. I thought I heard the new Superbright LEDs were Gallium Arsenide based thus the .3v drop guess. <br />I would use 14 volts for your calculations. Resistors can be had at Radio Shack. Be carefull not to put too much power to the LED or it will burn out in short order. If it is just right or below they will last a long long time.
 

RICKRICK1

Ensign
Joined
Jun 24, 2002
Messages
926
Re: Schematic Help!

Trollhole<br /><br />I see you have had a lot of help with this already. I work with some fine electronics folks (I'm not one) and they tell me you need to use a 68 ohm 1/4 watt resistor in series. Should take one resistor per L.E.D. Radio Shack about 25 cents each. <br /><br />Good Luck<br /><br />Rick
 

Scoop

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Jul 19, 2002
Messages
1,158
Re: Schematic Help!

That would make the current 150mA if my calculations are correct. Let us know how it works out.
 

JB

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Mar 25, 2001
Messages
45,907
Re: Schematic Help!

Trollhole.<br /><br />I agree that using dropping resistance in series would get you close, but it would be a crude and inefficient way to do it.<br /><br />The engineering correct way is to use a voltage regulator to reduce the voltage to a constant 3.5V or whatever you really need. Not complicated and a lot more efficient and safe.<br /><br />Please give us more detail about what you want to do. :)
 
D

DJ

Guest
Re: Schematic Help!

trollhole,<br /><br />I assume you are making warning type LED's for the dash? Some great ideas have been offered.<br /><br />I agree with JB. The voltage reg. would be the best idea. Similar to the instrument cluster voltage requlators used on automotive units.<br /><br />I think Radio Shack could fix you right up. You have the electrical values you need.<br /><br />Also, remember, if your engine has an unregulated charging system, voltages could reach 16V or better.
 

ebbtide176

Commander
Joined
Jan 22, 2002
Messages
2,289
Re: Schematic Help!

just to add to the poll, ;) i agree by 90% with JB & DJ. :D <br />uhhh, since i don't normally do research, but fly off the cuff, i'd be thinking- why is it that you cannot get LED lights for automotive(read boating) projects??? maybe it is that you are on a quest to shady your boat :eek: ?<br />kudos2u<br />since you are web-efficient(couldn't think of a more redneck term), i hope you'll enlighten us with lots of good pics on your project :D (we might need it someday)
 

petryshyn

Commander
Joined
Oct 3, 2001
Messages
2,851
Re: Schematic Help!

trollhole<br />This is a very subjective subject. Are the diodes already in a circuit assembly, or are they simply loose diodes?<br /><br />LED's are not a bulb device as one expects. The voltage is not critical (unless too low). Its the current to the led that must be controlled. A regulator set at a given voltage is not useable. You must use either a current reducing resistor of the appropriate value, or a current regulator circuit. Adding a resistor in series with each LED is the simplist and cost effective. In order to do this, you must know a few things:<br /><br />>maximum operating current in milliamps<br />>forward bias voltage drop<br />>the highest charging voltage the system will see<br />>are they connected together<br /><br />Once you have this info, we can calculate the exact resistor value needed. If you can supply a part number of the LED, I can probably get the specs needed......
 

durk187

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Aug 27, 2002
Messages
150
Re: Schematic Help!

Maybe a strange question but why not just get 12 volt led's?
 

trollhole

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Sep 19, 2001
Messages
423
Re: Schematic Help!

You guys are great!. Okay here is what I am trying to do. I fish a lot at night and since I troll seing everything that is going on is critical. I have 2 twelve volt lights attached to a pole on my center console. And when I need a lot of light (like reeling in the fish or rigging the lines) I use it. Problem is that its just to much light when I'm trolling. I only need to see the ends of the rods (four of them) and the lines going into the water. Plus I like looking up in the shy and star gaze at night and you just cannot do this with this big light above.<br /><br />I had mounted some small blue L.E.Ds to my rods with the wire zip tied to the rod and the batterypack under the reel. Problem was in all the batteries, the fact that everything usually get wet including the battery cases which are not waterproof, and the wire strapped to the poles would cause the poles to not react right when you had a big fish on them. Though this Idea worked pretty good I knew there had to be another way.<br /><br />So now this is what I'm working on. I'm going to attach these L.E.Ds to the edge of the boat and have my 12v battery supply the power. I plan on using these L.E.Ds (this is the link) . I want to put three of these in a small little container something the size of a postage stamp wire three together and put them under each rod holder. I figured I would run a small two condector wire to each box to power them. Would probably use epoxy to hold the bulbs in the container and seal out the weather. I plan on having five of these little boxes (one extra for the live well).<br />My thought for powering them was just to go to radioshack and by a car adapter that reduces from 12v to 3v. (I can get either a 300ma or a 1000ma)<br />And just take it apart and seal it up and mount it near the fuse block with a switch on the dash.<br /><br />Now your probably asking why don't I just go buy those led that are already premade. Well Bass proshops sell them but they cost $27 and I can make all of mine for what one cost plus all the sell are an amber color. And I would use just regular light bulbs but they use to much current and I fish for at least eight hours at night and sometimes I'll camp so it may be 16hrs of trolling on a weekend. And since I use the Kicker motor to troll I'm not charging the batteries (two of them). Plus It will look really cool when they are all on. :D <br /><br />And the reason I haven'tused 12v led are because they are more expensive and not easy to find and I have already purchsed the ones I mentioned above. L.E.Ds are going to be the light of the future. <br /><br />Highest charging voltage shouldn't be anymore than 16v. Lowest hopefully won't get below 11.6v.<br /><br />So what do you guys think? Any suggestions?
 

JB

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Mar 25, 2001
Messages
45,907
Re: Schematic Help!

Aha! That makes it a lot easier, Trollhole.<br /><br />If you connect the three diodes in series and connect a 80 to 100 ohm half watt resistor (+ or- 20%)in series with them no voltage regulator would be needed. The resistor will keep the current in a safe range and allow each diode to drop 3.5V.<br /><br />Schematic may have a better idea. If so, go with his suggestion. :)
 

trollhole

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Sep 19, 2001
Messages
423
Re: Schematic Help!

Can you connect Leds in series? I thought they had to be pararell? :confused:
 

durk187

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Aug 27, 2002
Messages
150
Re: Schematic Help!

Trollhole, I had that same idea with my 14'jon boat this summer. I just needed a little light to see the poles with and not attract 10,000 bugs. What I did was get a 12 volt rope light,(walmart $9.99) and wire it up underneith the side lip. Works Great.<br />
carpet.jpg
<br /><br />My friends call it a floating dance platform, but it is really functional. Just an idea, hope yours works out.<br /><br />DC
 

JB

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Mar 25, 2001
Messages
45,907
Re: Schematic Help!

Hey, Trollhole.<br /><br />I don't know of any reason why LEDs should not be connected in series. I don't remember whether I ever did it, but I do know I have connected other types of diodes in series with no ill effects.<br /><br />Good luck. :)
 

Scoop

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Jul 19, 2002
Messages
1,158
Re: Schematic Help!

Here are the calculations for the LEDs. They can be run in series. Remember unlike a regular light bulb, Diodes are devices that use current, not voltage. According to the datasheets, the diode maximum current is 30mA which is .03 amps.<br />You have to use a resistor to limit the current even if you use a voltage regulator. The regulator would keep the voltage constant so you would not have to worry about whether your supply voltage is 12, 14 or 16 volts, but you have to worry about power dissipation in the regulator wich is the voltage dropped by the regulator times the current of the circuit. The regulator would be better for a normal bulb, but is not needed with an LED. Each LED should drop .7V in the circuit.<br /><br />16V - .7V = 15.3V<br /><br />15.3V/.030A = 510 ohm resistor I would go higher than this. The resistors are +/- 10% of their value for regular resistors. .<br />15.3V x .030A = .46W of power dissipated by the resistor<br /><br />This is almost 1/2 a watt of power. You would need a 1/2 watt or 1 watt resistor<br /><br />(Note if your maximum voltage delivered is only 14 V then<br />14V - .7V = 13.3V<br />13.3V / .030A = 443 Ohms<br />13.3V x .030A = .40W<br /><br />Now the Datasheet does not confirm the .7V drop but this a standard and cannot change unless the diode is made from non-standard LED materials.<br /><br />If you use Diodes in series, then just add in a .7V drop for each diode.<br />16V - .7V -.7v -.7V = 13.90V<br /><br />Remember, you cannot change the intensity of the LEDs, they are either off or on. The only way to change the intensity is to use a circuit to turn them on and off extremely quickly. By varying this, your eyes interpret this as a less light because the LED is turned on only for a fraction of a each second.<br /><br />Schematic check my calculations to make sure I did not do anything wrong. It has been 12 years since I got my electronic degree and I have used it only rarely.
 

JB

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Mar 25, 2001
Messages
45,907
Re: Schematic Help!

Hi, Scoop.<br /><br />My impression was that this is a multijunction diode in order to provide a broad "white" spectrum. Vf is specified at 3.6V@20ma. Is there some single junction that emits multiple wavelengths that I never heard of?<br /><br />If my impression is correct I recalculated a limiter resistor for 3 LEDs in series at about 150 ohms, 1/4 watt for If of 20ma.<br /><br />If my impression is wrong and these are single junction diodes, then I agree with your calculations. :)
 

Scoop

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Jul 19, 2002
Messages
1,158
Re: Schematic Help!

JB, You are correct. I missed that. I have not kept my electronics background up with the time especially with the changes in the superbright LEDs. They had green and red back in the day. <br />Hopefully this looks better.<br /><br />- LED voltage drop 3.6V/device<br />- Maximum Amperage = .03A But specs give the 3.6V drop at .02A which would be a safety factor for longer LED life<br /><br />16v - 10.8V (3 LEDs in series) = 5.20V<br /><br />5.20V / .03A = 173 ohms<br />5.20V x .03A = .16 Watts<br /><br />Use 1/4 watt resistor<br /><br />5.20V / .02A = 260 Ohms<br />5.20V x .02A = .10 watts<br /><br />Use 1/4 watt resistor<br /><br />One LED<br />16V - 3.6V = 12.40V<br />12.40V / .02A = 620 Ohms<br />12.40V x .02A = 250mA<br /><br />Use 1/2 watt resistor<br /><br />Take this with a grain of salt, I have been doing budgeting for work for 3 straight days now and my brain is fried.
 
Top