not your normal foam question

lagoon bandit · Mar 20, 2006

Hmm...I have been pondering on this foam thing for so long. I have a 16' 1972 Yates fiberglass semi-v hull it not to far off from a bass boat or fishing boat. The boat has never had any foam ever. The sub floor was designed to drain all water to the bilge. Including holes in stingers however the boat was made cheaply pine plywood for transom and floor with no glass on top and so on. Due to the drainage water got in the sub floor as well as out (I'm sure the boat sat in the rain) and caused the rot. The department of transportation & The US coast guard put out a pamphlet for back yard boat builders, which covers floatation. I think everyone should read it. 1.To meet "today's standard" I will need aprox. 15 cubic feet of foam this is to float MAX. Motor, people & weight...overkill yes 2. My sub floor is about 3 cubic feet let say 180 #'s of floatation 3. Most boats flip over or go nose up when in trouble and to avoid that (level floatation) it would take a redesign of the interior and lots more $. But possible and the safest. However level floatation dose not always work and the may boat still flip over or nose up. So my Idea is to put lots of foam in the nose and install safety handles (mentioned in pamphlet). Ok that covers safety. (I have lots of other reasons) Now for the part I cant make my mind up what to do about the sub floor. I would like to add foam for support and floatation. Also I feel that in the event of trouble I think the foam would help. I think the backing of foam behind the hull would help in slowing the water in the case of a hole and help to prevent the hole in the first place. But, then what about drainage if I do get a hole. I want the water to drain to the bilge so I know Im in trouble I need to figure out a way to keep the water out of the sub floor but still be able to drain water in the event of a hole. If I am not able to do this then I see no need for foam in the sub floor. Sorry for it being so long I posted for any thoughts and ideas on the subject and it would be helpful and great full TIA -Richard

brownies · Mar 20, 2006

Re: not your normal foam question

34 years and it's not made it to the bottom of the lake yet. A Major boat manufacturer says "when we build boats for ourselves/employees..we don't use floatation" BUT...If you must...There are only two ideas of thought here. Either USE floatation or DON'T. 1.IF you don't use floatation, it means that you THINK or know water can get into those areas under the floor. Don't use floatation and leave passages so that it can drain and air out. 2. IF you do use floatation, it should mean that you THINK you can seal those areas to prevent any water from getting to them. IF you think you can COMPLETELY seal these areas off airtight/watertight. I'd use floatation. There is no middle of the road that I know of. If water can get into those areas, foam will get wet, and it won't dry or drain.

brownies · Mar 20, 2006

Re: not your normal foam question

Something to note: I'm working on a 97 that had saturated foam and floor rot. (and the factory had this sealed?) You're working on a 72 that had no foam and rot. Nuff said?

lagoon bandit · Mar 20, 2006

Re: not your normal foam question

"34 years and it's not made it to the bottom of the lake yet. " LOL that is a goood point the age old question.. to do or not to do.. I really like your thoughts on the subject so what is you opionon this "Also I feel that in the event of trouble I think the foam would help. I think the backing of foam behind the hull would help in slowing the water in the case of a hole and help to prevent the hole in the first place." Do you think this is true? So far I think no foam I just want to be sure because this is the last order from the supply store. thanks again -Richard

Always Broke · Mar 20, 2006

Re: not your normal foam question

Hey Richard, Your just on the other end of Maytown Road from me so to speak, Im in Oak Hill, if your putting in the St. Johns floatation aint going to help you, the gators would get you before any help would come so why bother with flotation? Save your money and build a oyster bar proof boat

On the other hand if your going to put flotation in my personal preference would be to put it in the areas that stay out of the water. If your worried about the integrity of the bottom from an accident Im not sure if the foam would slow the water down significantly enough to help you if you put a hole in it big enough to sink it, another words its not meant to be used as a sealer, just my opinion I don't know of any research done to back it up.

brownies · Mar 20, 2006

Re: not your normal foam question

On a boat like yours. Small, lake boat, spends most of the time on the trailer/day use on the lake. No way no how would I put foam back in one. (big boats, big water...My opinion changes, but, I've never messed with a boat like that). I agree with the slowing down of water intrusion during an accident. And I know accidents are not planned. I cannot speak from a safety point of view on this. I don't see that end of if on a day to day basis. and, I can't think of anybody I know that has ever cracked a hull. Which, is hard to beleive because I've seen LOTS of missing lower units. (I mean RIPPED COMPLETELY OFF AND GONE FOR GOOD). I'm just speaking from a building/restoration/longevity standpoint. I won't put the stuff back in anything (unless it's under the top cap and exposed to air from the underside). We know safety is more important that a boats longevity problems, but, there are limits to both. The safest way to keep from having a boating accident is to stay off the water. The best way to keep a boat from water intrusion is not to ever use it and store it inside. How much we can get away with from there is purely common sense and judgement. Just decisions we all must make on our own....going from one extreme to the other. Staying home with the boat in the garage-vs-Ramping a beaver dam at 40mph. I won't use floatation foam. I know what it and moisture WILL DO (no matter what). But, I've never sunk a boat either. I bet I'd change my mind if I was swimming for the shore.

Bondo · Mar 20, 2006

Re: not your normal foam question

I can't think of anybody I know that has ever cracked a hull. Which, is hard to beleive because I've seen LOTS of missing lower units. (I mean RIPPED COMPLETELY OFF AND GONE FOR GOOD).

Ayuh,....... Same Here.............. It seems to Me,... that if you need to rely on the Thought that a layer of Foam is going to Save you from Holing your Boat.......... Ya might otta just Stay in Bed,..... It's Much Safer.........

I find the "Holing the Hull" theory the Craziest arguement to Foam a hull.... Any Impact at Speed will be a Glancing Blow, due to the angle of attack........

Tail_Gunner · Mar 20, 2006

Re: not your normal foam question

Ok hold on here a sec, i have read enough material on foam to come to a few conclusion's. 1. added strenght 2. closed cell (no absortuion) 3. what am i missing here? 4. with all that foam adding structure with no absortion how can you guy's dis foam? i mean i cant see no negatives, or are you saying all foam absorbs water? I think not, some enlightnment plz i'am almost ready to put structure back into my hull.

lagoon bandit · Mar 21, 2006

Re: not your normal foam question

The reason I am asking about the foam and slowing water. I wanted to know if it was true. I have been told that. Just was wondering!!! The boat I am working on has had the hull cracked I just patched it up a month ago (I do want to note the boat did not sink) I was told when I got the boat the they ran into something at a high speed...looking at the scratches before the hole I'd say it was true...what really happened who knows...the one thing he did say was he wish they could of slow the water But...like you guys said... besides the story above I have never actually know someone to do so and I do not think it will happen to me By the way I love fishing way too much to stay in bed trust it is worth the risk Always Broke: The gators would get you in the St. Johns as well as a couple other places I drive down maytown every weekend to go out to the lagoon. Which as you know it is very shallow I have ran aground 2 times now both on a grass flats one time I was planed out. Now that I have become a weekend warrior I do not think it will happen again. But. You did make the comment..."Save your money and build a oyster bar proof boat".. Now I would love your comments on that one Thanks for the comment and advise everyone -Richard

brownies · Mar 21, 2006

Re: not your normal foam question

Tail_Gunner, The closed cells are on the inside. The area where foam meets wood or fiberglass won't turn out as designed. This is where water will absorb into. If not, it will trap water in between the foam and other surface. Water will hold here and eventually soften materials until it can penetrate. I'm not sure I've ever seen any saturated foam that was wet in the middle. Most of it is just soggy on the outer edges. Couple inches deep. If moisture is held in the foam or in any crevice and not allowed to escape (dry out). It will cause rot problems. 99% of the time, the question of "Replacing" the foam started with a rot problem. When you are knee deep in a hull of a rotten boat removing a wet, stinky, nasty mess of foam and wood. With your last two paychecks turned into supplies for your next months worth of work....The question should be... How do I keep this from happening again? The answer is to figure out why it happenned to begin with and prevent it from happenning again, or prolong it for an extensive amount of time. It makes no difference what a company claims their foam will do. How long it will last. How many years they guarantee it. If I manufactured floatation, I'd have a lifetime warranty....Who's gonne be using it? Any claim to greatness could be made. And five years from now, IF you kept your reciept, AND, you could prove you installed it according my impossible to follow technical proceedures....I'd have no problem with honoring my warranty and giving you a few gallons.

brownies · Mar 21, 2006

Re: not your normal foam question

I do think foam would slow the intrusion of water. The stuff has many benefits and it has many drawbacks. If you do crack your hull though, with foam installed, you may not know it...for years. Withoug foam, you would catch it pretty quick. It mostly depends on your planned use of the boat. The life expectancy of your boat due to physical damage-vs-element damage. There's a compromise there that you must make. I've never needed the benefits of floatation. And I go places at least three times a week that require me being on plane to even get there. I don't "rock" up against something and cause a crack. I'm running 40-50mph and leaving a trail of debris. (some of these places are a mess to get out of...no room to launch...lol) I have seen the disadvantages up close and personal MANY times though. Therefore, I don't re-install floatation. I'll be changing my mind the first time I'm swimming for shore though. Until then.....no foam.

Always Broke · Mar 22, 2006

Re: not your normal foam question

Lagoon Bandit, Great fishing there. My buddy just hooked a 3 gator trout in them shallows a few weeks back, they love that warm afternoon sun after a cool morning. I know what you mean about bottoming out, I was going through the government cut behind the islands and went a couple feet out of the channel, I miscalculated since its not marked there. I hit one foot of water with a two foot draft boat at 35, skidded sideways, broke my seat off, almost lost a guy out the side of the boat, the other two smacked up against the inside. What a ride!

Lucky the only thing that got hurt was my pride thinking I knew my way around back there and we laughed about it afterwards. It kinda goes to show you that you never know what can happen to you, inland water or out in the big water. Follow your conscience, do whatever makes you feel safe with floatation, in my case it wouldnt have helped unless we had air bags LOL. I dont care for foam because of the moisture accumulation problems it has, even if it doesnt infiltrate the foam it never gives the bilge area a chance to completely dry out. Like I said before when I use it I like to keep it up out of the bilge, You can always seal the deck so if you get a hole thats all the further the water will go and have one of them little round hatches that you can open now and then to air it out, bilge pump and to check for water. When your on your way to visit the mosquitoes look to the right about a mile before the blinker light and wave at the yellow house with boats here, there and everywhere, thats me. The Oyster beds are sharp as razors and hard as rocks down here Brownies, if you smack into one at speed your going to do damage. The manatees are another story though they are kinda like going over a soft ski ramp, although I never hit one by accident, honest!

AMD Rules · Mar 22, 2006

Re: not your normal foam question

On the topic of drainage, in conjunction with foam...you may be interested to read some of the Boomyal thread, for 'disolving rope': Check here: http://forums.iboats.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=26;t=001489#000012 here: http://forums.iboats.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=26;t=002120#000007 here: http://forums.iboats.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=26;t=002569#000000 and here for some great pics: http://www.shareaproject.com/pages/projectTut,p,92,00.html

JasonJ · Mar 23, 2006

Re: not your normal foam question

The foam thing is always a tough call, and I went back and forth on it when I did my boat. My major deciding factor was the fact that I couldn't swim. I preffered the thought that I would have something there to hang on to. Even a good swimmer would never make it if they were out in the middle of a large body of water and the boat sank. The fact that some people have not had their foamless boats sink is not good enough for me. They are lucky or they boat in safe water. On my lake, when a bad storm comes up and you are caught in it, You stand a high chance of swamping and sinking in a small boat unless you are skilled. I'll just end that comment with the statement that there are quite a few boats on the bottom of my lake. I would not even consider going out on a major body of water in a boat that does not have at least some safety margin whether it is shear size to handle rough water or floatation. I do agree if you are going to use foam, go all the way, or don't bother at all. I have foam under all of my floor except the center bilge. It does add strength, and it also quiets the hull down. As far as keeping water out if holed, I guess that depends on how bad the holing is. It will at least slow the water down, but if there is not enough foam in the first place, you'll still be in trouble. I feel it would at least keep the water out long enough to get you to a shoreline if nothing else.

studlymandingo · Mar 27, 2006

Re: not your normal foam question

I have an oversized bilge pump in my 18' Center Console. As long as you are pumping out more than what is coming through whatever intrusion, you are bouyant. A few years ago a bad fiberglass repair (not my own repair) let loose in a 16' Glastron, the boat quickly swamped, but I had a spare bilge pump onboard which I quickly hooked up and ran the hose over the side, it was a little hairy for a few minutes, but I made it to the dock with a dry floor despite the 22" gash in the bottom of the hull. BTW I immediately went home, removed the floor, and properly repaired the hull from the inside and out. Carry a spare pump! A manual pump is a great idea in case you lose power

not your normal foam question

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