GPS Location APP

[alldodge]

Question comes from what really happened.

Ambulance is at the scene and has called for a Air Flight. Gives address of location to dispatch. Dispatch relays address to air ambulance but control nor air crew knows exactly where that is. So they give GPS coordinates to local hospital.

I'm listening to this over scanner and air crew is circulating hospital looking for ambulance. Hear ambulance your not familiar with this area? Response is No. EMS says land at hospital and we will come to you. Note: county hospital is unable to take care of patent.

Knowing ahead of time, I would have pulled address up on google maps, selected gps coordinates and then could call dispatch with correct coordinates.

I plan to talk to locals LEO/EMS about this, but wonder if there is an APP which they could have on the phone, or maybe something else

 

[Scott Danforth]

Google would be my first selection (I dont do apps)

 

[dingbat]

I depend on navigation apps on a regular basis. Have found major discrepancies on most.

Problem….. mismatch between GPS coordinate system (gps) and the map overlays

Plug in my home address on most systems and you end up 2 blocks away.

Visually identify my house on Google maps. Address come up 6 digits off.

Plug the gps numbers for my home on the chartplotter in the boat and your arrive on my door step

Have had entire blocks “visualized” on the wrong side of the road…

 

[alldodge]

Figure if there isn't a simple app to get them close, then I'll talk to the Sheriff to find out if dispatch knows how to bring up google maps. If they get close EMS talking to Air flight will work

 

[southkogs]

I would think the emergency management stuff should be tied into GIS data somehow. There's a way to get GPS coordinates to the aircrew en route - if nothing else, one of the uniforms on the ground can just pop open their phone for a "close enough." Incident command system should have standards for that kinda' thing. Not to mention the maps that are available in the aircraft avionics: that crew should be able to locate things pretty close on their own.

Someone on the ground has to figure out a LZ for the helicopter anyway. So at some point there should be radio traffic to the bird talkin' them in.

Honestly AD, to me it sounds like someone didn't know/do their job that night.

 

[alldodge]

Honestly AD, to me it sounds like someone didn't know/do their job that night.

Agree, standard procedures should have taken over but it either didn't or something else.

I heard talk from EMS and Air. EMS said we are at X and to look for the church. Air said we are not familiar and coordinates that was given was at hospital. The location difference was maybe 3 miles by air.

Dispatch was online with but no one gave different GPS coordinates. I'm no expert by any means but this seems simple for me. Dispatch could have just brought up the correct location and relayed

 

[aspeck]

I gotta agree with southcogs on this one. There is no reason why between dispatch, the ground crew, and the air crew it could not be figured out. We have our LZ's preplanned. Where ever the emergency is, we know our closest LZ. Dispatch knows the LZ's and the coordinates of same. It is seamless. And then when we set up the LZ there is a way we do it with cones and lights that it can be seen day or night from the air and from miles away. So all the aircraft needs to do is to get close to get the visual.

It also depends on where the bird is coming from where we will head. If it will be 30 minutes and we are ready for the patient to roll now, we will met the aircraft at the local non-trauma hospital heliport (so as not to keep patient around possible family members and a stressful situation longer than needed and to allow others to be cared for on scene). Sometimes the appearance of doing something useful is better than standing around and waiting.

Somewhere along the way, someone dropped the ball or was just to lazy to figure anything out.

 

[alldodge]

Maybe, but this is small town and it can have a few different Air Companies.

 

[aspeck]

Maybe, but this is small town and it can have a few different Air Companies.

We are small town and have 3 different air medical companies that can come, depending on available, weather, and flight times. How we operate actually has nothing to do with the air medical, it has to do with dispatch and the local fire companies SOG's and SOP's. Our SOP's require identifying suitable LZ's in our first due coverage area and registering them with dispatch. Dispatch has the GPS coordinates at that time, as do we. We will then work with dispatch and the ETA of the air medical to determine the best LZ for the situation (usually the OIC's (Officer In Charge) call). It works pretty easily for our rural area. We are centered about 5 miles from the local hospital, but 30 miles from the 2 local trauma hospitals and 60-100 miles as the crow flies from the major trauma hospitals.

 

[southkogs]

I fly SAR missions in fixed wing aircraft mostly in areas I'm not super familiar with - sometimes I've got to talk a ground unit into the area. It isn't as easy as it sounds, but often you can find an obvious landmark and tell 'em look for this on your route ... target is 3mi at 090º.

Helps the aircrew a lot when the ground units have their blinky lights turned on too

There are always "circumstances," so you don't wanna' bust the responders chops without the whole story, but something in the tale as laid out doesn't quite add up. The rural guys we work with here in TN are pretty capable crews ... they just have more chewing tobacco stashed in the unit than the city rigs

 

[bassman284]

Twice in the last 15-20 years seen wrecks where the ground ambulance was on the scene and yet they waited 20 minutes or more for Air Care copter to get there. in both cases the ground trip would have taken less than 20 minutes running at the speed limit all the way.

 

[alldodge]

All I can say is, "it is what it is"
Not telling you word for word but my previous statements is how it went down. Not going to bust anyone's chops, just wanting to figure out why it happened and solution for next time.

They where going to take the patent to Vanderbuilt but family wanted Louisville. Has nothing to do with what happened, just listening to EMS and Dispatch talk

 

[aspeck]

Twice in the last 15-20 years seen wrecks where the ground ambulance was on the scene and yet they waited 20 minutes or more for Air Care copter to get there. in both cases the ground trip would have taken less than 20 minutes running at the speed limit all the way.

That does occasionally happen for reasons usually beyond the ground crews control. Have been involved where we were told ETA would be 20 minutes for the 35-40 minute ambo ride to the trauma unit. Okay, send the bird. 10 minutes in the bird had crew or mechanical difficulties or weather change, or rerouted. Now we have wasted 10 minutes and the next bird is still 20 minutes away ... faster than the ambo can get them to the trauma center, but if the bus had left immediately, it would have been faster. Crazy things like that happen, unfortunately.

On a different note, every air crew we have met have been top notch. The pilots have been amazing and the crew super knowledgeable and efficient. Some have been unbelievably cocky, but I guess that goes with the position. But for skill, care, and efficiency, they have been nothing short of amazing. That is another reason that I wonder why they couldn't find the LZ. I swear, any of the pilots I have met (and in 30 years of doing this have met a lot) have had a higher than normal IQ and could find a specific twig in the middle of a national forest!

 

[aspeck]

Another LZ story ... the neighboring fire department had a freak accident involving the Chief's young son. He was playing in a dumpster at the fire station and the lid closed, landing on his head. He was life flighted to Pittsburgh Medical Center (UPMC) where a week or so later he passed away from the head trauma. It was a couple days later when there was an emergency in their coverage area and the patient needed Air Medical. Instead of going to the closest LZ (parking lot of the neighboring fire department and basically the back yard of the Chief), LZ was moved to our district. Wind picked up and we were ready to move the LZ to the hospital helipad when Air Medical said the wind was no problem. Landed and patient survived and neighboring Chief and his wife didn't have to relive LZ in their back yard a few days after their son passed away. Lot's of things to take into consideration and why the ground crew, ambulance crew, dispatch, and air medical need to work together as a team to get the job done as best they can.

 

[southkogs]

They where going to take the patent to Vanderbuilt but family wanted Louisville. Has nothing to do with what happened, just listening to EMS and Dispatch talk

One incident I was a part of had the patient (heart issue) loaded on the whirly ... in the air; with priority routing to through the Nashville TCA ... headed to Vanderbilt.

... until ...

The patient fought the crew that he wanted St Thomas Hospital instead: so they re-routed mid-flight.

On a different note, every air crew we have met have been top notch.

Same around here. Pretty impressive bunch.

 

[alldodge]

Got the shinny on what happened
Sheriff and EMS was at the location. They sent the correct GPS coordinates to dispatch for LZ. Dispatch sent same to Air crew. Ait crew came for next town (about 20 miles) over and flew right over the top or Sheriff and EMS.

According to the Sheriff, the pilot said he entered the correct coordinates (what I was hearing over the scanner) which were right, but actually the correct ones where either not entered correctly, or the GPS in the chopper had an issue. Sheriff thinks the issue was with the pilot and would not admit they did it wrong

 

[southkogs]

^^^ It happens.

Surprisingly, sometimes the interface on the avionics is a little more klunky than you would think in such a "smart phone" world. The crew should own it and use it for improvement purposes; particularly because of the type of incident it is. But, you can always tell a pilot ...

... just can't tell him much.

 

[aspeck]

Yes, remember the comment I made about the air medical crews? They are amazing to work with and know their stuff inside out and backwards. However, there is a level of cockiness that seems to come with the position ... and some are more than others.