Capital "punishment"?

[JB]

The Governor of Illinois has pardoned a few condemned convicts and commuted all other death sentences to life sentences.<br /><br />I support death for certain crimes, proven beyond doubt, but I have recently been shocked by the number of condemned persons proven to be innocent by new evidence.<br /><br />That is the Governor's argument: that the system is flawed and must be corrected before death sentences are reinstated.<br /><br />I see the flaws in the system as follows:<br /><br />1. Too often representatives of the state and the communnity are focused on winning, rather than justice.<br /><br />2. Poor people are too often assigned incompetent or unskilled representation.<br /><br />3. Juries are too often swayed more by emotion than facts.<br /><br />How often is "too often"? In my opinion, if one innocent of a hundred defendants is sentenced to death, that is too often.<br /><br />It seems to me that harder, objective proof of guilt must be required for a death sentence and that police and prosecutors need to have incentives toward justice, not convictions.<br /><br />What are your thoughts on this volatile subject?

 

[ob]

Re: Capital "punishment"?

I agree with what JB has pointed out as a flawed means of seeking justice in capital murder cases.The only area that I am fuzzy on is the 1 out of 100 theory of the falsely condemned.While it would be a shame to falsely condemn even 1 man to death this mentality seems to provide a means of eventual parole for the other 99.Statistics show in many cases that some types of violent crimes involving murder are repeated after the offender is released.The 1 out of 100 stat (and possibly higher)in these cases then become the victims and not the accused.Just a thought.

 

[Beaux]

Re: Capital "punishment"?

I don't feel that the solution is to have a governor who is going out of office and therefore "immune" to his critics to declare that 100+ juries were ignorant to the truth. Those jurors are the ones who sat through ALL the testimony and fact presentations. This guy just wanted to have a legacy. For this Clinton-like pardoner to display his "power" when going out of office is pitiful. I agree, nobody should be convicted of a crime they did not commit, BUT that is why the statutes read "beyond a reasonable doubt". That is the very foundation of our legal system. All pardons should be highly scrutinized and debated before enactment. Pardons/commuting of sentences are there for the purpose of the extreme misjustice that rarely displays itself. This is not the type of power that should be granted to any one politician. Did he forget that this is a democracy and the majority of his voters support the death penalty for these worst of the worst criminals? They have protection against rogue prosecutors, that is why these inmates are granted apeals to higher courts. This governor was dead wrong to commute EVERY death penalty case.

 

[DJ]

Re: Capital "punishment"?

That governors actions were purely irresponsible. Were there some innocents among the condemmed-probably.<br /><br />The citizens of Illinois can now be certain that some of the released will indeed kill again.

 

[Navigator]

Re: Capital "punishment"?

Im my opinion, the governor should have the power to "Stay an Execution", but not to grant a pardon or change sentencing. The supreme court of that state should be the only ones who should be allowed to change the sentence. Like Beaux says, one man shouldn't have the power to overturn the entire judicial process, simply because he doesn't believe in something. True there are flaws, but many of those on death row were confessed murderers. How would you like to be the family who lost a child to a cold blooded killer, just to find out that some liberal outgoing governor set him free. <br />Hopefully this will have some national backlash that would spur a reformation of the current process. <br /><br />Nav

 

[dmessy]

Re: Capital "punishment"?

Being from Illinois originally and having family there, the consensus of opinion is that the govenor has done the right thing as his last action in office. Illinois gets a new govenor today. His actions where not flippant yet, very well investigated over a period of years. Something is definitely wrong with the courts system when 10 of 25 cases investigated have determined that the wrong man has been sentanced. This will be addressed by the new administration.<br />Personally, putting people to death for crimes, no matter how hidious, is a form of man playing God. A death cannot be reversed. I am an avocate for life without parole. I know I may get alot of opposing opinions and thats OK because we all have that right as free Americans.<br />Djohns... these death row inmates are not being released but will stay in prison for life or until aquitted, so not to worry on that point. The ones that have been pardoned have been proven to have not done the crime. Should we keep them in prison anyway? I think not...

 

[JB]

Re: Capital "punishment"?

As DMessy points out, the Governor did not act spontaneously. He reviewed each case in question, after a four-year investigation, and found nearly half (NEARLY HALF!!} of 25 cases had sentenced an innocent man. All of those pardoned were proven innocent by new (mostly DNA) evidence.<br /><br />Again, I support death as a way to eliminate the costs of supporting capital criminals for 40 to 70 years, but that system is not working.<br /><br />Shut it down until it can be fixed.

 

[DJ]

Re: Capital "punishment"?

dmessy,<br /><br />That piece of info. is comforting. Thanks to the national "anti-news" media for spreading a falsehood. I should have known better.<br /><br />What about the other "half" they're not sure about? I assume-further investigation is in order.

 

[Beaux]

Re: Capital "punishment"?

okay.....good points dmessy and JB. I agree those 10 guys should be set free AFTER ITS PROVED IN COURT THAT THEY ARE INNOCENT. Grant a stay and order a new trial. If you can't legally do that as governor, then go to the press and present your evidence and that will stir the courts into action. Dont pardon and become judge,jury, and savior. Dont let the inaction and poor job performance of a few judges/prosecutors cause the entire legal system to be dismantled. I dont think most liked the OJ verdict BUT that is our system...change it legally if you can or move. Dont use some power granted for extremely rare circumstances to broadly change a law and disregard the entire judicial proscess in your state. <br />What about the dozens of murderers who WERE convicted with the same DNA evidence you claim is valid enough to free the others??? To allow someone who is wrongly convicted to go free is honorable...to allow the guilty to benefit from a few miscarriages of justice is criminal. Are you saying that the fifteen felons that you yourself said could not be exonnerated by this crackerjack governor's investigation should have their sentences changed too? It one thing to right a wrong... its another to thwart the legal system based on a few examples to change the laws that you personally don't believe in. That is not democracy. <br />He was right to investigate. Sounds like there needs to be further investigation, but his remedy was rash and lacked intelligent thinking. Every one of those inmates had a different fact basis. He did it to be remembered and to make a political statement. <br />

 

[JB]

Re: Capital "punishment"?

Hi, Beaux.<br /><br />I do consider DNA to be conclusive evidence to acquit, but only strong evidence to convict. The reason is that a DNA match is not 100%, but a DNA exclusion is 100%.<br /><br />Frankly, I do not consider life without parole as a benefit compared to execution, but difference in beliefs about afterlife, etc. would make a difference there. My objection to life sentences is based on the cost of maintaining the convict for so long and of paying for frivolous appeals and suits.<br /><br />I am frustrated by the many years of delays available, at taxpayer expense, to the condemned, but the rash of proofs of innocence are just too powerful evidence for me. <br /><br />If there is no doubt, I say kill 'em, and do it quick. If there is doubt, seek justice without emotion. There has to be a better way to discover the truth.<br /><br />See? We don't disagree so much.

 

[Beaux]

Re: Capital "punishment"?

JB-<br />I actually feel the same as you on the DNA issue and the problems with prolonged waits for execution. My specific problem is this former governor using a few similar good examples to change over 160 different cases. That was wrong. I agree with you JB, stop the system until it is fixed (I personally dont think in 99% of the cases that it is broken), but that means a STAY of execution until court proceedings can determine each individual case by merit...not a few pardons and/or even worse dictate sentence changes for ALL the cases. I cant wait to hear from the parent of some child who was raped/impaled/slaughtered and eaten by some sicko WHO FREELY ADMITS IT to this day!!! Yet thanks to this expired politician in Illinois, this guy would get life instead of death. Hmmmmm...makes a lot of sense doesnt it???? <br />Good topic BTW...I have been wanting to debate this since I heard about it.

 

[SCO]

Re: Capital "punishment"?

I saw a program which questioned the certainty of fingerprint evidence. Gist is the credibility of the analyst that declares a match and public perception of infallability. It's taken the certainty of DNA evidence to expose the inaccuracy of the system. No interpretational wiggle room. To conclude guilt of someone based on circumstantial evidence is an imperfect human process.

 

[Fishbusters]

Re: Capital "punishment"?

Sounds to me that The Governor in question did the right thing. To have convicted and killed 25 innocent men is a shame and the entire system of capital punishment within that and perhaps many other states need to be looked at and perhaps restructured before they continue with carrying out sentences. I am not against capitol punishment but something is wrong with the legal system in the state if as was stated half of the men executed were innocent.

 

[miloman]

Re: Capital "punishment"?

In Canada we dont have the death penalty we Here is how it works for murder 1 year before trial (which counts for 2 years served)the maximum is 25 years which is seldom givin 1/3 served 1/3 eligble for parole after 2/3 mandatory release and thats for 1st degree. I believe that anyone who has taken a life should be forced to pay for that life. not be sheltered in a room with better food matresses and rights then he had as a free man. I think killing him is wrong. H should be forced into a life of extreme hardship Alcatraz was a good example. There should be work camps isolatation lack of rights and priviliges those should be forfited upon conviction. As for the poor not having access to representation. Well what can you do about that? I dont have an answer for that 1

 

[88spl]

Re: Capital "punishment"?

Off with there heads!!!!!!!!!!<br />

 

[ebbtide176]

Re: Capital "punishment"?

i offer kudos to you who researched this topic. i have only speculated on the basis of how i feel if i were in this situation of being charged and how a whole country can handle criminals like myself in this situation - which i'm not.<br /><br />so, to consider the situation like you put it- i hope for a full enlightenment, knowledge, scientific testing & hardcore understanding of evidence. we can only work with the details we have, and if what we know now proves innocence then i'm thankful for the ability to acquit.<br /><br />but i did want to mention that some of the statistics floating around of % of innocents is exaggerated from the changing requirements of the beaurocracy. in other words, some falling into the former guilty/now innocent were not even under the death penalities... so alot of this appears to be hyped up media coverage. <br /><br />or to me, alot of the new forensic testing has helped people in prison, but most of the media coverage has portrayed it as a gross problem with our justice system. <br />i still think our justice system is overly swayed on the side of the criminals, not the victims...<br /><br />and i guess the real meat of the topic is whether i am willing to accept responsibility of ending someones life without personal knowledge of their guilt- i can only say i will accept the laws which currently govern me, and understand that some flaws still exist... and hope for more and better laws but meanwhile living with a clear conscience that we do what we feel is the best for the country as a whole, our emotions withstanding. <br />IMHO<br />(i really didn't want to put my 2cents in here, but i did anyway)

 

[roscoe]

Re: Capital "punishment"?

There are several groups that are throwing around numbers of people "proven innocent". But this far from the truth. One group was using 104 overturned convictions and saying the were exhonorated and proven innocent. But the truth is that over 70 of those had their cases overturned on technicalities. Of those 70, 68 were guilty without question, but still set free because of time table or juristiction, or process discrepancies. Several others of the 104 had grown old and developed health problems, and they had been released to serve out their time on earth in hospices. <br /><br />Only about a dozen have actually been cleared by real evidence in recent years.

 

[mellowyellow]

Re: Capital "punishment"?

boy this is a tough one JB... the value of the death penalty is as a deterrent, but let's face it, most of these hardened criminals stare death in the face regularly and put very little value on human life to begin with.<br />the whole penal system seems inadequate to me. it takes a lot of apprentice criminals and mixes them with all the professionals to learn more tricks.... silly. (networking for criminals)<br />they call it "rehabilitation" <br />90% or more are released only to be arrested again and are right back in jail. why???<br />these people are mostly uneducated and don't have many options in life other than working minimum wage jobs. you can't support a family on $6/hr.,<br />so they turn right back to crime.<br />a continuing cycle that ends in serious crimes eventually where the death penalty comes into play.<br />I don't profess to have the answers, but seems like we should be able to do something when these guys are first arrested as teens and prevent them from developing further as criminals.<br />then perhaps we wouldn't have to worry about the death penalty... <br />regards,<br />M.Y.

 

[SlowlySinking]

Re: Capital "punishment"?

Capital Punishment may not eliminate crime, BUT, it cuts down the number of second offenders.

 

[mattttt25]

Re: Capital "punishment"?

did a little research and found that in the year 2000, the prison population in the u.s. rose to over 2 million. wouldn't it be great if we could work out a system that put all these individuals to work, and all profit made went back to us law abiding citizens? i think i may run for president with that agenda item.... any votes?