1995 Force 120 hard to turn over..... again

[panopix]

Hard to crank, turns over so slowly that it wont ignite. I had the same problem a while back and tested all which lead me to assume it was the starter. Replaced the starter and fixed all. A few months later it starts happening again, I test all again and assume it is the starter again. Starter under warranty so it goes back and supossedly the armature was bad. New starter, still same problem. Props spins free in neutral, cleaned connections, jumped selenoid, tested batteries. Unless Im missing something, Im lost? When trying to turn flywheell manually i can hear a slight sqweak of some sort, should I worry? Any Ideas?

 

[Jiggz]

Re: 1995 Force 120 hard to turn over..... again

Remove all plugs and try turning the flywheel, it should be free as a bird to spin. If not you have a problem and need to located it. Do you hear the "squeak" you mentioned? If it spins freely without the squeak, try cranking it with plugs pulled out. Did it crank fast enough? Do you hear the squeak? If spins fast enough and no squeak, do a compression test. Re-post results.

 

[panopix]

Re: 1995 Force 120 hard to turn over..... again

I have spun it without the plugs: by hand, not as free as a bird but it almost feels like theres still compression. By starter: it spins fast enough to start, or at least a major improvement than with plugs in.

 

[batman99]

Re: 1995 Force 120 hard to turn over..... again

.

What is PSI compression within each cylinder?

To test cylinder PSI, remove all wires, install PSI gauge tool within one cylinder (leaving other plugs tightened down) and ensure 5 full cranks using the key. Do dry test. re: When throttle in idle position. And, do damp test - when throttle in WOT position. PSI should be between near 150 (on brand new) and down to 120 (on warn out engine). Regardless of engine inner age, there should be less than 15 PSI variance between each cylinder. On some 120 HPs, the top and bottom cylinders have slightly lower PSI. RE: normal 5 point variance comparing middle cylinders. If more than 15 PSI variance, one piston or piston ring might be dragging. Remove its plug, squirt some Sea Foam - Deep Creep lubricant into that cylinder and hand crank (with all plugs removed). Thus, ensuring the deep creep is wiped across entire cylinder wall. Let sit (open air) for 2 hours, then idle engine (on muffs) for 10 minutes. Then, check PSI again. Thus, hoping a stuck ring or ???? is released. If wondering, this Sea Foam - Deep Creep is how I eliminated stuck ring condition on my Force 120 HP engine. Now, all cylinder PSIs is 150 range.

And being 120 HP engine, I always use a "Deep Cycle" battery. With high PSI, the OB's electric starter needs lots of cranking amps. Both max AMPs and longer endurance depth. Normal 12V battery for small cars don't do well on this large HP Engine. I read somewhere that Deep Cycle battery rated at 900 CCa is good for 120 HP OB engine.

Also…. What is the thickness of 12V battery cable and its 12V ground wire? Thin cable (if someone replaced one or both of the factory cables) delivers less AMP and less amps over stresses the electric starter. Thus, early death of electric starters. Always use thick 12V gauge wiring (for - and + 12V current flow) to the battery. Ensure both ground and "+" cable is as thick as one's thumb. And, any manual 12V battery switch is removed as well. Switches are connect points and reduce MAX current flow.

Hope these ideas help…

 

[glenn property of pam]

Re: 1995 Force 120 hard to turn over..... again

take the replacement starter to a auto parts store and ask them to test it. wouldnt be the first one thats bad out of the box

 

[JB]

Re: 1995 Force 120 hard to turn over..... again

I strongly disagree with parts of what Batman said.

1. Do the compression testing with all plugs out.

2. Use a large starting battery, not a deep cycle battery. DC batteries are made for long term low current drain; starting batteries are made to deliver large current surges. A big dual purpose battery like the Everstart Marine Maxx should be adequate.

A good compression test procedure is in the Engine FAQs Forum.

Whenever there is this sort of trouble the FIRST thing to do is service the battery and all connections from battery to the engine. Battery must be fully charged and pass a load test. Both battery cables should be removed and inspected for swellings and weak spots and all ends must be scrubbed shiny before reconnecting.

 

[batman99]

Re: 1995 Force 120 hard to turn over..... again

never mind....

 

[Jiggz]

Re: 1995 Force 120 hard to turn over..... again

I have spun it without the plugs: by hand, not as free as a bird but it almost feels like theres still compression. By starter: it spins fast enough to start, or at least a major improvement than with plugs in.

Next step is compression test. Activate the kill switch so you do no damage the CD packs. Starting from the top cylinder all the way to the bottom test each cylinder compression while listening for change in tune while cranking. Usually 5~7 revolutions is all you need to take readings for each cylinder. If the battery runs low from this operation, it's a good indication it could be the source of the problem. So to make sure it is not the problem, fully charge it before starting the test. You can also jumper two batteries in parallel to increase ampacity.

 

[jerryjerry05]

Re: 1995 Force 120 hard to turn over..... again

Check all grounds and connections.
The battery leads,check for soft spots.
Just to be sure, ground out the plug wires when doing the tests.
It can cost a bunch for a blown pack.

 

[panopix]

Re: 1995 Force 120 hard to turn over..... again

I Will test today and get results back as soon as I can. Should the compression be the same with plugs out as opposed to in? and Ill test starter at parts store.

 

[foodfisher]

Re: 1995 Force 120 hard to turn over..... again

With the plugs in, a missed step and it could start. With your problems about slow rpms at start you won't get a true reading.

 

[glenn property of pam]

Re: 1995 Force 120 hard to turn over..... again

a good starter on a good battery will turn the motor until it breaks something so ive no idea why you need to do a compression test to find that the engine is not turning over fast enoght to start. with the plugs removed it spins over with the plugs it it spins real slow so we can rule out mechanical problems as it does turn.
after checking the basics like clean connections, a charged battery, degraded battery cables, pull the battery and starter then run them down the store where they have a test bench set up that can tell you the health of the battery and starter. i have personally had 3 brand new starters that were bad over the years 2 of which would turn over a motor if you pulled the plug yet could not turn over the motor with plugs in. the intresting thing was that the store said they had the another 4 they sold returned indicating that they had a bad batch so its not uncommon to get more then one bad starter from the same place.

 

[panopix]

Re: 1995 Force 120 hard to turn over..... again

Ive had the battery and starter checked and both were fine, How do I know if a cable is bad? The problem happened suddenly so Im not sure it would be cables. The Battery has 685 cold cranking amps and should be enough because it has worked countless times in the past.
I have tried bypassing the cables by hot starting through jumper cables satraight to the ground and starter so it seems that it would have to be the starter but I cant locate the problem.

 

[glenn property of pam]

Re: 1995 Force 120 hard to turn over..... again

was the starter checked or tested under load. there are 4 brushes in the bottom of the starter and all 4 are required to produce the torque required to start but the motor will turn over on the bench with only 2 working

 

[panopix]

Re: 1995 Force 120 hard to turn over..... again

It was not tested under load. How would I go about testing that. I replaced the battery leads to engine, from 4 guage to 2. It helped but not 100%. It seems to be intermittent now sometimes its slow and others just starts right up? It seems if its hot it will crank right up as opposed to cold and slow.

 

[SkiDad]

Re: 1995 Force 120 hard to turn over..... again

Starters are pretty cheap on ebay - i got one for about 60 or 70 bucks for my dad's boat a few years ago and it was brand new and worked great. Pretty cheap try b/c if you have the same issue just put your old starter on Craigslist for 30 bucks or something like that

 

[glenn property of pam]

Re: 1995 Force 120 hard to turn over..... again

theres a few ways to test a starter and it depends on where you take it. ive seen auto parts places touch the leads of a battery and if it spins they tell you that its good when in fact that test doesnt mean squat.
the best places use a meter that measures the voltage drop and amp draw to calculate how the starter will react under load and the very best places have a machine that the starter is strapped into it that adds a load and does a complete test.

a good clue is a starter that will get real hot real fast

sry forgot to add that if you have had a bad starter before then replace the solinoid as its cheap and they tend to get burnt out or worse they stick which will lead to bigger problems. this may be the problem if you are sure the starter is ok

 

[bentle]

Re: 1995 Force 120 hard to turn over..... again

Question?? On the starter does the shaft that the gear slides up on have any back and forth play?? If so then this may be your problem. When the gear makes contact with the flywheel, is it pushing the shaft outward ? If yes then its binding up and either needs a rebuild or replacement. Go ahead and replace the solenoid switch as well because after all of the failed attempts to start, it to is probably shot or getting ready to from excessive heat.