May build cabin, plan and concrete questions.

[sublauxation]

I've had my eye on a piece of lakefront for a while, the price has gotten to a point where I may have to buy it. Just had a couple questions and hoping for some input. This is in northwest WI so it will get chilly. I've talked a lot with the township and building code seems to be minimal at best, in fact the guy chuckled when I asked specific questions.

I've been looking at plans for garages with lofts, probably 24 x 30 or 26 x 28. With clear span trusses it would make an open floor plan where adding 2 bedrooms, bathroom, and kitchen would be easy, and we'd use the loft as a sleeping area for the kids. Obviously I'd skip the garage door and add extra windows. Is that a dumb idea, or am I missing anything? My wife seems convinced that it's not that easy.

As for a slab there seems to be no code requirements. I've read mixed reviews as to the necessity of footings, especially since the ground is all sand. If I need footings do they have to go below the frost line or can I just pour 18" or 24" deep around the outer apron? I want to use a floating floor so some cracking wouldn't be bad but heaving wouldn't be good.

This would be a cabin, I don't need or want the Taj Mahal. My goal is obviously to keep cost down and keep it easy since I'll do a lot of the work myself, but I also don't want a place that will fall apart.

Thanks for any and all input!

 

[Ibl0wstuffup]

Re: May build cabin, plan and concrete questions.

I don't know the code but I have a place on lake Huron thats on sand. When it was built the foundation was poured in 2 slabs right on top of the sand. We have had all kinds of problems with it shifting. The 2 slabs now have a 5in. wide gap between them and one of my doors is jammed shut because the house settled on top of the door. My place is about 40 years old. I think where I am all new construction needs to go below the frost line and I have heard of some people digging holes depper than the footing and putting rebar and concrete in them to try and prevent the settling and shifting.

 

[captmello]

Re: May build cabin, plan and concrete questions.

Sounds like a fun project! I'm in the process of building something similar. In fact this is the the end of the third summer of construction for me.

I too am in sand which makes a good base for a poured concrete slab. Being a carpenter/DIYer, I wanted to do a foundation that didn't require block work since I don't know how to lay block, So I researched what is called a frost protected shallow foundation and went ahead with that method. Google it!

By doing my foundation that way, I was able to do all the work myself except I paid a guy to do the concrete finishing when we poured the slab so it came out smooth and nice. I also installed pex tubing in the slab so I can have infloor heat when the project is finally done. Its cheap and easy, and depending on the building size, you may be able to heat it with a hot water heater.

I have pics if you're interested.

 

[joed]

Re: May build cabin, plan and concrete questions.

If you are not going to pour full below the frost line footing then I would pour the slab in one piece. The outer edges are thicken like a stem wall but it is all one piece, often called a monolithic slab.

Here is an image

 

[colbyt]

Re: May build cabin, plan and concrete questions.

Ensign's design above is a great illustration of a single pour style. I added rebar to the perimeter when I did it for a garage. Here we are required to take the footer portion below the freeze line. Considering your location I suspect yours would use enough concrete to justify pouring the footer and the slab as separate pours. A 20 x 30 garage took 20 yards for a single pour (one perimeter was about 3 feet tall). If I were doing it today for use as a garage I would do a 2 pour and have a raised curb for the perimeter in order to slope the floor towards the door.

I built that and assisted my FIL in building a cabin at the lake. Ask all the questions you like and I will do my best to answer.

 

[rogerwa]

Re: May build cabin, plan and concrete questions.

If you are thining NW Wisconsin, you need to check with the county as there are many land use restrictions you need to be aware of. I have a place in Burnett county and there is a place down the road where the owners wanted to expand and received permits from the township and commenced building. The county found out and siad they needed to take it all down. they were in court for two years and the property sat half finished.

My friend who had a place burn down in Burnett county also had a nightmare trying to rebuild on his property. Not saying you will have a problem, but there are many restriction just for waterfront property owners that you will need to be aware of.

 

[sublauxation]

Re: May build cabin, plan and concrete questions.

Sounds like a fun project! I'm in the process of building something similar. In fact this is the the end of the third summer of construction for me.

I won't let my wife see that "3rd summer" part! That's her fear as I have a bad habit of underestimating how long projects take. She's still laughing at me for thinking I can do the electrical rough-in in one weekend. I would likely have somebody build just the shell and do the rest myself.

Does the Pex need to be drained in the winter if it's not turned on? My fear is freezing in the winter time or the radiant heating taking a long time to heat things up for the occasional ice fishing trip. I've debated that and also propane vs electric baseboards. I've heard propane can get spendy but I also hate cooking with electricity so we'll see.

Thanks for the info on the frost protected monolithic slab, that's what I was hoping to be able to do, I read from a couple people in northwest Ontario that used one with no problems. I'm guessing that's cheaper than going down below frost. If I have to pour footings below frost would it then just be easier/cheaper to make a crawl space and use wood floor joists?

@Rogerwa, Thanks for the heads up. I talked mostly with the Township board and sounds like that is a mistake. It's not even nice for the county to step in and trump the township. Sounds like I have a bunch more calls to make to the other people. The lot I'm looking at is complicated but if all works as I hope it will be an incredible piece of property.

 

[Bigprairie1]

Re: May build cabin, plan and concrete questions.

A waterfront cottage....sounds like a great idea particularly if the market is cheap right now to buy in. (I wish it was here!!)
As for the building itself, I wouldn't think twice about getting down deep below the frost line for the foundation. If you don't want to go full perimeter foundation with full depth then at least go with a dozen or so sono-tubes that get down that deep (4' to8') to support the house....you'll be glad you did, no...you'll be really glad you did!!!.
I've seen frost heave on a few houses and its a disaster and renders the house near worthless without thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars worth of repairs and re-support both inside and outside....its a mess.
If you are doing it from scratch the difference in cost is really not much at all....a few extra thousand dollars at best for some extra excavating and some extra cement. Do it right when you get the chance....scrimp on the furniture later.
Remember....its not called a 'Foundation' for no reason....and that term means the same in a lot of non-building cases.
I'm kind of surprised you don't have to follow the code and that there might not be a code for this in your area?
Often if you just 'wing it' and go 'non-code/do-it-yourself style' you won't be able to get your Hydro hooked up....let alone getting anything like insurance for the place, etc. Plus your long term value will always be compromised.
Regardless, the lakefront idea is a great one....keep us posted on your plans.
BP

 

[captmello]

Re: May build cabin, plan and concrete questions.

I won't let my wife see that "3rd summer" part! That's her fear as I have a bad habit of underestimating how long projects take. She's still laughing at me for thinking I can do the electrical rough-in in one weekend. I would likely have somebody build just the shell and do the rest myself.

Does the Pex need to be drained in the winter if it's not turned on? My fear is freezing in the winter time or the radiant heating taking a long time to heat things up for the occasional ice fishing trip. I've debated that and also propane vs electric baseboards. I've heard propane can get spendy but I also hate cooking with electricity so we'll see.

Thanks for the info on the frost protected monolithic slab, that's what I was hoping to be able to do, I read from a couple people in northwest Ontario that used one with no problems. I'm guessing that's cheaper than going down below frost. If I have to pour footings below frost would it then just be easier/cheaper to make a crawl space and use wood floor joists?

My cabin is kind of a taj mahal, according to my friends who've seen it. It really isn't but, it's been a big job, thats for sure.

I've never gotten anywhere trying to argue with my wife about how long each part will take cause neither of us really know. However, I am a remodeling contractor so I better have a much better idea than she does. In fact I believe you could rough in the wiring in a weekend.

the pex is filled with antifreeze, so no issues with freezing. Yes, it takes much longer to heat up than other systems, but once heated, it can be very efficient. I plan to use an outdoor wood burner to heat my cabin. but I will also have Propane backup and a wood burning stove, so between those three, I'll keep it warm but I will also be able to let it freeze up with minimal winterization needed. Your heating options are endless so take your time researching and you'll find the right method for your building.

And, Yes, if required to go below frost depth, you'd have a crawl space and wood framed floor. You could do a frost depth block wall and then backfill and pour a slab within, I believe that is called slab on grade, But I wouldn't. the Monolythic slab isn't so much cheaper if you hire it out, its just that for me, I could do 95% of the work, instead of having to pay for the excavation and block work.

Here's a pic of my monolythic slab before I added the pex.

A couple things to note, I used 2" foam under the entire slab. this method keeps the ground under the slab from freezing even when not heated. I also have 2" foam wings that go out 5' around the base of my slab that I added after the slab was poured. the pic shown in an earlier post with no insulation under the slab is for a building being heated year-round.

I have also built a 28 X 28 cabin on 16 pier footings like Big Prairie mentioned. that could also be an option, much cheaper, but most likely below code for a living space that large, but may be worth asking about.

You will need to pull permits, and your plans will have to be reviewed by someone, most likely the county.

 

[emoney]

Re: May build cabin, plan and concrete questions.

I, for one, would be putting in a below-the-frost-line foundation and using a crawl-space type construction. With the price of concrete, it will probably be the less expensive way to go anyway. The footing also supports the roof, keep in mind, as the building's one big cohesive structure. As to the "filling in the open space" absolutely nothing wrong with the plan. In your neck of the woods, I'd think long and hard about 2x6 exterior walls for added insulation space.

Scour your local Craigslist before you start building as there are usually tons of things for sale that you can use. Windows and doors are especially best purchased used in a building like this. I wouldn't focus as much on finding a specific size window as I would designing the cabin to fit the windows I found, if that makes sense. I also agree about checking with your county, and even any state building codes just to be on the safe side. We've probably all heard those horror stories about things getting build and THEN getting tied up by a municipality. There are several true stories where people have spent hard earned money and time just to tear down their homes, barns, etc. because an inspector didn't get to see with his/her own eyes the work completed. Ounce of prevention as they say.

 

[Fishing Dude too]

Re: May build cabin, plan and concrete questions.

If I was pouring a slab I would leave a channel for water, and sanitation that was not poured so if a problem developes. Can put bathroom butted up to kitchen so short runs on lines. This would also make winterizing easier as you could put copper lines in for water so would have a downhill run to drain rather than blow out. Also consider a tankless water heater so it wouldn't need drained.

 

[sublauxation]

Re: May build cabin, plan and concrete questions.

Arggghhhhh!

Thanks for all the help. Hopefully I can resume this thread again soon. We planned to sign an offer tomorrow. For better or worse my now ex realtor hung us out to dry via their incompetence and another offer was accepted yesterday.