Inherited Electrical Nightmare

FlaCowboy

Ensign
Joined
Dec 8, 2011
Messages
973
Re: Inherited Electrical Nightmare

First of all...Cofe is "NOT" an electrician and therefore Should NOT be doing any electrical work what so EVER!!! Electricity is Dangerous...period.
To those of you trying to tell him how to fix this issue is "nice" of you all...however any of you could get him hurt or worse.

IMHO...Cofe needs to go Higher up the chain of command with this issue.

Nuff said :facepalm:
 

bigdee

Commander
Joined
Jul 27, 2006
Messages
2,665
Re: Inherited Electrical Nightmare

Some might be surprised to know that industrial establishments with a service load of 2500kva or greater and at least one 480/277 3phase service and a qualified maintenance personnel, is exempt from over 40 NEC situations. Qualified does not mean licensed,instead it means mandatory annual training in safety,procedures,documentation,first aid and any hazard that may be encountered in their workplace. I have worked in 4 separate fortune 500 companies where the employees done over 90% of all electrical installation....everything ranging from running a 120 volt circuit to installing 13000 volt substations and 4160 volt switchgear and never once was there ever an electrical inspector involved.
 

Cofe

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Apr 23, 2009
Messages
1,883
Re: Inherited Electrical Nightmare

cofe if you are working with electrical especially 480v and above you will also need to learn the new arc flash rules especially if you do any live diagnostic work as osha is getting real hot on that one. at work we now have to follow all ppe for arc flash on anything over 120v.

I was not aware of the new ppe requirements for working on anything over 120 volts. Where I used to work and help electricians with heavy switch gear, we would only suit up in full ppe for 4160 work. Thanks for the update!

Thanks everyone for the debate on this subject. I have since tagged out the system and will be removing the 115 volt add on from the loop. A new run for the 115 with a breaker will be ran in the near future.

Just to mention...I have only encountered the practice of robbing a 230 volt conductor to power 115 volts several times before in water wells. It seems that it was a common practice in old installations. So anyone with water wells, please check out your installation. "Be Safe!"
 

djames

Cadet
Joined
Oct 19, 2012
Messages
10
Re: Inherited Electrical Nightmare

First off, I am working at a factory as a mechanical maintenance manager. I know enough about electronics to be dangerous, but I am not a licensed electrician.
Ok now for the rest of the story? I have been repairing minor electrical repairs on 480, 230, and 115 volt building systems. On a recent repair of two 230 volt receptacles, I noticed that someone had ?robbed? one leg and the ground of the 230 volts and ran it to a 115 volt receptacle. The 230 volt system is on a 50 amp breaker and there is not a breaker associated with the 115 volt add on. I reported these findings to factory manager and he just shrugged his shoulders and walked away. I am thinking of repairing this situation, but I feel that a licensed electrician should do the job, but the manager won?t allow for the added expense.
Should I just write this situation off?
Move up the chain of command and report this situation? ?which would make my job hell?
[FONT=&quot]What would you do?any suggestions?[/FONT]
Hey Cofe, first of all this could be very dangerous especially if someone had an accident involving this particular piece of conduit.Trace the conduit to it's location and decide weather or not these circuits are needed then do away with them. They were probably done that way to avoid the expenditure of running it correctly since it would have cost much more to make a new run from the proper panel. Seem's like money and not safety is a deciding factor in your warehouse.Your are in a warehouse environment and I'm sure forklifts and walker riders and pallet jacks are in use all the time. Murphy's Law applies here (always) it not a matter IF, but WHEN the accident happens. The victim WILL sue the company and become the new Plant CEO and the 1st order of business will be to severe' the head of someone in maintenance. 50amp breaker(probably 3phase) on a 120V single phase recepticle is a no-no.No good can come from this.If a problen occurs,it would take much longer for a 50amp breaker to trip than a 20 amp. Document your findings and report this to the safety mgr. if there is one(don't know if the company is lg. enough),but if you don't have one,go to Human resources and have it documented providing you have a HR Dept...thread carefully now, your job will be in danger because you now brought a safety issue up and who's head do you think will roll first,your or the plant Mgr.. OSHA is your next step if you want a safety issue resolved and since you already brought this up to the Plant Mgr. they'll be no question as to WHO OSHA was contacted by. There's no easy out here. If it were me,I am a licensed Electrician, I would disconnect the 120V branched receptacle on the down low and I would do it while it's still hot as to NOT attract any attention, but this is dangerous for a non-qualified electrician. Can you work on doing this while the warehouse is empty and are able to shut that 50amp circuit down with no one watching? It should only take 5-10 minutes to do away with that receptacle and get the circuit back up....I've been in your shoes before.I alway's do the right thing because I know as an electrician I can always find work in a matter of minutes.I never cared about a SH--list..Hope this was helpful Cofe.
 

bigdee

Commander
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Jul 27, 2006
Messages
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Re: Inherited Electrical Nightmare

I have since tagged out the system and will be removing the 115 volt add on from the loop. A new run for the 115 with a breaker will be ran in the near future.

You have done the proper procedure by using LOTO (lock out,tag out)
1.It is your responsibility or anyone else including the lowest employee to LOTO.
2.As a maintenance supervisor you have the responsibility and right to over-rule upper management osha mandates that safety issues have priority.
3.OSHA also states that YOU or any employee can personally be held liable in a criminal lawsuit if LOTO is not followed and an employee is injured.
4.Everyone in the plant including the plant manager has to have annual inter-active training on all these issues, this training has to be documented and filed for the Feds so your PM should be aware of proper procedure.

Without observing your situation I am not going to tell you in detail how to correct it. If this was a single phase 230 with neutral it is acceptable to split the circuit if done as stated in post # 10 . If it does not have a neutral it is also acceptable to feed a 240/120 1.5kva transformer from that circuit. If you fail to get through to your manager,then this may be worth pointing out to the local fire Marshall when he makes his routine visit! That should get PM's attention and get you off the hook.
 

Tim Frank

Vice Admiral
Joined
Jul 29, 2008
Messages
5,333
Re: Inherited Electrical Nightmare

........ That should get PM's attention and get you off the hook.

Should....but I think that is a big part of the thread....the PM may not be the brightest light in the string. :eek:
 

NewfieDan

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
May 8, 2011
Messages
383
Re: Inherited Electrical Nightmare

First off, I am working at a factory as a mechanical maintenance manager. I know enough about electronics to be dangerous, but I am not a licensed electrician.
Ok now for the rest of the story? I have been repairing minor electrical repairs on 480, 230, and 115 volt building systems. On a recent repair of two 230 volt receptacles, I noticed that someone had ?robbed? one leg and the ground of the 230 volts and ran it to a 115 volt receptacle. The 230 volt system is on a 50 amp breaker and there is not a breaker associated with the 115 volt add on. I reported these findings to factory manager and he just shrugged his shoulders and walked away. I am thinking of repairing this situation, but I feel that a licensed electrician should do the job, but the manager won?t allow for the added expense.
Should I just write this situation off?
Move up the chain of command and report this situation? ?which would make my job hell?
[FONT="]What would you do?any suggestions?[/FONT]

As both a Safety guy and a licenced electrician you now have a real nightmare. But you do have an out. By telling your manager you have effectively put the responsibility on him. A phrase that everyone is due diligence. You have done your part by telling him about a seriously dangerous situation. Your manager is failing miserably in protecting the facility and workers by ignoring the situation. Up here in Canada we have a law that says that if a there is proof that a supervisor knows of a problem but fails to correct the situation, that manager can be held criminally responsible for any serious incident. My suggestion would be to tell him that under OSHA rules he is responsible for getting it fixed properly.

It is a tough call, and I can understand your position but remember how you would feel if something went wrong and, God forbid, someone was killed. To me that would be a worse situation.
 

LongLine

Chief Petty Officer
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Nov 2, 2008
Messages
494
Re: Inherited Electrical Nightmare

There are two things that I know OSHA says "No grandfathering." 1st is LOTO, 2nd is arc flash.
 
Joined
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Re: Inherited Electrical Nightmare

There are two things that I know OSHA says "No grandfathering." 1st is LOTO, 2nd is arc flash.

you sound like the consultant that we hire 3 days a year who also happens to be a osha inspector and consults on nec except loto is now "loto and test". about 5 years back i came across "bell and tube" (i think thats what its called looked like a electric fence wire for rodents) which makes the "no grandfathering" refrence realy hard to understand. it was nice to see that removed and replaced but shouldnt that have been removed 20 years ago as code changed.
 

sam60

Captain
Joined
May 21, 2011
Messages
3,189
Re: Inherited Electrical Nightmare

First off, I am working at a factory as a mechanical maintenance manager. I know enough about electronics to be dangerous, but I am not a licensed electrician.
Ok now for the rest of the story? I have been repairing minor electrical repairs on 480, 230, and 115 volt building systems. On a recent repair of two 230 volt receptacles, I noticed that someone had ?robbed? one leg and the ground of the 230 volts and ran it to a 115 volt receptacle. The 230 volt system is on a 50 amp breaker and there is not a breaker associated with the 115 volt add on. I reported these findings to factory manager and he just shrugged his shoulders and walked away. I am thinking of repairing this situation, but I feel that a licensed electrician should do the job, but the manager won?t allow for the added expense.
Should I just write this situation off?
Move up the chain of command and report this situation? ?which would make my job hell?
[FONT="]What would you do?any suggestions?[/FONT]

I've read a few of the responses, but not all of them.

You need to ask yourself a question. Do I like my Manager enough to serve time with/for him?

You have maint. manager as your title. Do you think the family of the one who gets killed won't sue you also?

Who knew what and when did they know it?
 

bigdee

Commander
Joined
Jul 27, 2006
Messages
2,665
Re: Inherited Electrical Nightmare

The plant manager will listen if it becomes a problem.....use LOTO and it will be.
Document everything to CYA; meetings,observations,dates & times. This is the one time that your authority is above his.
 

Tim Frank

Vice Admiral
Joined
Jul 29, 2008
Messages
5,333
Re: Inherited Electrical Nightmare

Thanks everyone for the debate on this subject. I have since tagged out the system and will be removing the 115 volt add on from the loop. A new run for the 115 with a breaker will be ran in the near future.

That should do it! :)
 
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