Apparently, I'm not much of an auto mechanic...

[JASinIL2006]

I've been servicing my wife's '13 Toyota Sienna minivan (2wd, about 115,000 miles), and I have a front end rattle that has persisted despite my having serviced a bunch of stuff that needed to be replaced. I've posted my question on a vehicle-specific forum, but they don't always have a ton of traffic, so I'm hoping some of the more experienced mechanical minds here might also be able to help.

On this minivan, I have recently replaced, on both sides of the vehicle:

• lower control arms, bushing and ball joints
• struts, strut mounts and bearings
• outer tie rod ends
• sway bar links

I did not replace either of the rear engine mounts (I guess the driver side mount technically is a transmission mount), the engine's torque strut mount (i.e., the 'dogbone' on top of the engine that controls vibration), or the bushing where the sway bar connects to the subframe. The engine mounts had to come out to allow access to the LCAs, so I was able to give them a good inspection. All of those looked good and there was no play in them at all, they were very stiff. The bushings where the sway bar connects to the body were also tight and appeared in very good shape.

The Problem: although the front end feels much tighter and vehicle handling is improved after my work, I am still getting a rattle or light clunk when going over bumps. (The rattle preceded any of my work, by the way.) The noise is not affected by speed, acceleration/deceleration, or turning. It seems to be primarily coming from the front end on the driver’s side. In addition to hearing it, I believe I can feel it a bit through the floor board.

From everything I’ve seen, it does not seem to be a wheel bearing (no grinding, no speed-dependent noise, no differences from turning right or left). Is that a reasonable conclusion, that bearings can be ruled out?

I’m not sure what else to check... since the vehicles don’t have serviceable inner tie rods, would the rack and pinion be a suspect? Any idea how to evaluate that?

I’m stumped. Any suggestions/ideas/diagnostic tests would be most welcome!

 

[hemi rt]

Check the front struts and especially their mounts at the top. the top swivel mount can make a rattling noise.

 

[JASinIL2006]

The struts, strut mounts, strut bearings and their boots were all replaced and appear to be correct. The rattle/clunk did not go away when they were replaced.

 

[southkogs]

Brake pads rattling around?

I have a bushing on my control arm that makes the same type of noise because the rubber boot has pretty much disintegrated.

 

[JASinIL2006]

Brake pads is a good idea... I imagine if they're loose when jiggled by hand, that would be the sign? Any other way to test them?

Thanks!

 

[southkogs]

I know on my Ford, there is an anti-rattle clip. Sometimes the stupid thing falls out and they rattle intermittently. I don't think I've ever been able to feel them move with my hand - which consequently surprises the heck outta' me when I eliminate the rattle by replacing the pads and putting a new clip back in.

Don't know if my Dodge has those or not. I paid to have the brakes done on that one.

 

[Bob_VT]

get under it and look at all the exhaust hangers and examine the exhaust shield My toyota has a bad shield that only rattles when it wants to and you can feel it through the floor

 

[JASinIL2006]

Ok, so no idea yet about the brakes. Nothing looks noticeably out of place, but beyond that, I’m not sure what to look for.

The exhaust shields all look pretty firmly in place and the exhaust pipes are all secure and tight, no movement there ar all.

The only thing I noticed - and I don’t know if this is normal - is there is some play in the axle between the transaxle and the passenger side wheel. There is no movement up and down, back to front or laterally (end to end). There is, however, just a bit of slop when I grab the shaft and rotate it. The shaft rotates about 1/8” and the clicks a little before locking. I have no idea if that is normal, but the short shaft between the transaxle and the driver’s side wheel does not have any play at all.

Otherwise, nothing seems loose. Steering is tight; if I grab one wheel and turn it (as if turning the car right or left), the other wheel turns immediately without slop. That would seem to eliminate the rack and pinion.

I don’t know what is left to check... maybe front motor mount? Replace the brakes?

 

[MRS]

FWD probably in the trans axle cv joint sounds about right for the amount of miles on it. Click noise is not good.

 

[dingbat]

Fought a weird clunk in front end of my Civic for a while. Ended up being the torque mount.

Didn’t sound like it was coming from that area, but a close inspection of the part displayed classic signs of failure.

Have you inspected the mounts?

 

[JASinIL2006]

To change the LCAs,I had to remove the rear mounts and the torque mount. All of them looked really good. The rubber was all intact and the mounts were extremely firm and solid. I had expected they would need to be replaced, but after seeing them, I don’t think there was any need.

 

[Scott Danforth]

define the rattle. what does it sound like. does it have only one or two bangs, or does it have about a half-dozen that taper off in amplitude?

could be some of the plastic body work flopping around, these would be soft rattles
could be loose major components, these would be hard thumping/clunking

items to check:

• inner tie rod end - easy to check, have someone move steering back and forth when you are under looking at rack. would be a soft thuck that you feel in the steering wheel only during certain turns
• loose/worn sway-bar bushing - depending on the amount of wear would be either a muted thunk or a metalic thunk that is felt/heard over every bump
• loose K-member to unibody (engine/suspension support cradle) - requires a large pry bar, a few jack stands and a jack. would be a hard thunk over major bumps
• loose/broken motor or trans mount - requires a large pry bar, a few jack stands and a jack. would be a soft thud noticeable under acceleration as well as large bumps.
• broken radiator support / fan support - requires removing the cowl over the radiator. would be an annoying plastic like rattle, mostly on during the fan running or very rough roads (this was the problem with my neighbors toyota van)
• loose headlight bucket. would be an annoying plastic-like rattle on small bumps and with wind loading.

 

[JASinIL2006]

The noise is like on or two knocks, and I only hear it going over bumps, even fairly small ones. To me it sounds heavier than a loose plastic piece and I haven’t found anything up front that is loose.

These vehicles don’t have a serviceable inner tie rod; you have to replace the whole rack and pinion. Anyway, the steering feels tight and there are no clicks or catches as you turn. Plus, the noise happen mostly when not turning the wheel.

The sway bar bushing seemed like a good idea to me, also. I checked it out, though, and it looks to be in very good shape and there is absolutely no play in the sway bar. In fact, when the sway bar was detached from the front wheels, it was very stiff and hard to move, which I believe is how it is supposed to be.

Headlight assembly looks tight and I can’t see how that would be creating a rattle. I did check it, just to be sure. Looks OK.

Of the motor mounts, I have had three of them out already and they looked fine. They were very stiff, the rubber was in good shape, and they had no play. There is fourth under the front of the engine that I have not been able to look at yet. To get to it, I will need to remove a bunch of plastic cowling and maybe the bumper cover from the front. I know it is no guarantee, but given how good the other mounts looked, I have been holding off on tearing into this. I suppose I’m getting to the point where I really need to check it, also.

The K-member to unibody union is also something to investigate, although I’m not even sure I would know where to look for those. Loose radiator mount is also a good idea, although the fact that this occurs over even minor bumps and regardless of whether the fan is running, makes me wonder about it.

Thanks, Scott, you have given me a couple more things to look at. I will see if any of them seem problematic.

 

[JASinIL2006]

Well, I remain stumped. I checked out everything mentioned above and nothing looked/felt abnormal. I'm afraid it's time to turn this over to a professional...

 

[SpitAndDirt]

I have a similar noise on my 2000 Audi A8. It's my daily driver and I currently have 322,000 miles. I know my car pretty well because I do all my own repairs. I can tell you that without a doubt that my front wheel bearings are shot. This is the second time I will have replaced them since I have owned the car. Seems like the integrated wheel hub units are only good for about 125,000 miles according to most internet sources.

I ended up buying what is called a Chassis Ear in order to pinpoint my noise. The Chassis Ear tool has 4 individual tiny microphones mounted to clamps. You clamp the microphone to what you suspect is making the noise and go drive the car. You listen using a little amplifier box and headphones. It's like a mechanic's stethoscope, only better.

What I discovered is that it sounds like after 150,000 miles the wheel bearing cage that separates each of the individual balls in the front wheel bearings has failed or the hard chrome plating of the balls has chipped off. The random "clacking" sound resonates through the vehicle frame and sounds like anything else but the wheel bearings. What is amazing to me is that my car still glides without the typical speed-depending growling noise that is normally indicative of bad wheel bearings.

Hopefully this helps you diagnose the problem.

https://www.amazon.com/STEELMAN-066...=1&keywords=chassis+ear&qid=1588019012&sr=8-2

 

[SpitAndDirt]

Sorry, didn't mean to double post

 

[Roonhunter]

Well, I remain stumped. I checked out everything mentioned above and nothing looked/felt abnormal. I'm afraid it's time to turn this over to a professional...

Definitely sounds like a wheel bearing, many times bad wheel bearings don’t follow the norm when troubleshooting. Order one from rock auto, should be cheap. Don’t remember what u said milage was but wouldn’t hurt to change both.

 

[racerone]

Had an incident with my DODGE pickup a few years ago.----After pulling out from gas station onto the road I heard a " clunk "-------Stopped , backed up and drove around the block and all seemed normal.-----Went out on that highway for about 300 miles at 60 miles / hr on cruise.-----On the off ramp I heard some growling noise.----5 miles after that I pulled into a driveway with horrible screeching noises.----Neighbors there came out to see what the noise / commotion was all about.-----Front wheel bearing was done.------Installed new bearing hub assembly in the driveway there.----That was 100,000 miles ago.-----Front wheel bearings will fool you.----Still amazes me that it did not lock up at 60 miles / hr !!

 

[harringtondav]

Jack up the vehicle so only one front tire is off the ground. Grab the wheel and jiggle it vigorously. Any play would indicate a bad outer tie rod (you've covered that), or looseness in the wheel bearing/hub. A loose hub is a bad hub.

Also a worn ball joint may be the problem. My FWD Dodges manual said to grab the grease zerk and jiggle with the vehicle on the ground to find any play. Play = bad ball joint. Also when you jiggle the wheel also do it a 12 and 6 oclock to check for ball joint play.

 

[JASinIL2006]

Thanks for the ideas. I know it's not the ball joint, because I replaced those along with the lower control arms. There is no play in hub when grabbing the wheel at 12 and 6 o'clock, or at 3 and 9 o'clock, when the front end is jacked up. I suppose I could replace the bearings, but I'm not crazy about replacing stuff if I'm not reasonably sure it's the problem. That gets expensive fast!