President needs to clean house

Ralph 123

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Re: President needs to clean house

Political Issues Snarled Plans for Troop Aid<br />By ERIC LIPTON, ERIC SCHMITT and THOM SHANKER<br /><br />WASHINGTON, Sept. 8 - As New Orleans descended into chaos last week and Louisiana's governor asked for 40,000 soldiers on Wednesday, President Bush's senior advisers debated whether the president should seize control of the hurricane relief mission from the governor so that active-duty combat troops could be sent to enforce order.<br /><br />For reasons of practicality and politics, officials at the Justice Department and Pentagon, and then at the White House, decided not to urge the president to take command of the effort by invoking the Insurrection Act, which allows the president in times of unrest to command active-duty forces into the states to perform law enforcement duties. <br /><br />Instead, the Washington officials decided to rely on the growing number of National Guard personnel flowing into Louisiana, who were under Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco's control.<br /><br />This debate over federal versus state control of the military relief mission was triggered as officials began to realize that Hurricane Katrina exposed a critical flaw in the national disaster response plans created after the Sept. 11 attacks. According to the administration's senior homeland security officials, the hurricane proved to them the failure of their plan to recognize that local police, fire and medical personnel might be incapacitated and unable to act quickly until reinforcements arrive on the scene.<br /><br />As criticism of the response to Hurricane Katrina has mounted, one of the most pointed questions has been why more troops were not available more quickly to restore order and offer aid. Interviews with officials in Washington and Louisiana show that as the situation grew worse, they were wrangling with complicated questions involving federal/state authority, weighing the realities of military logistics and perhaps talking past each other in the crisis. <br /><br />Decision makers in Washington felt certain that Governor Blanco would have resisted active-duty combat forces entering her state but not under her command. While troops can conduct relief missions without the legal authority of the Insurrection Act, Pentagon and military officials say that no active-duty forces could have been sent into the chaos of New Orleans on Wednesday or Thursday without confronting law-and-order challenges.<br /><br />But just as important to the administration were worries about the message that would have been sent by a president ousting a Southern governor of another party from command of her National Guard, according to administration, Pentagon and Justice Department officials. <br /><br />"Can you imagine how it would have been perceived if a president of the United States of one party had pre-emptively taken from the female governor of another party the command and control of her forces, unless the security situation made it completely clear that she was unable to effectively execute her command authority and that lawlessness was the inevitable result?" asked one senior administration official, who spoke anonymously because the talks were confidential.<br /><br />Officials in Louisiana agree that the governor would not have given up control over National Guard troops in her state as would have been required to send large numbers of active-duty soldiers into the area. But they also say they were desperate and would have welcomed assistance by active-duty soldiers.<br /><br />"I need everything you have got," Governor Blanco said she told Mr. Bush last Tuesday, when New Orleans flooded. In an interview, she acknowledged that she did not specify what sorts of soldiers. "Nobody told me that I had to request that. I thought that I had requested everything they had," she said. "We were living in a war zone by then." <br /><br />The governor illustrated her stance when, overnight Friday, she rejected a more modest proposal for a hybrid command structure in which both the Guard and active-duty troops would be under the command of an active-duty, three-star general - but only after he had been sworn into the Louisiana Guard.<br /><br />Also at issue was whether active-duty troops could respond faster and in larger numbers than National Guard soldiers. <br /><br />By last Wednesday, Pentagon officials said even the 82nd Airborne, which has a brigade on standby to move out within 18 hours - could not arrive any faster than 7,000 National Guard troops, which are specially trained and equipped for civilian law enforcement duties. In the end, the flow of thousands of National Guard soldiers, especially military police, was accelerated from other states. <br /><br />"I was there. I saw what needed to be done," Lt. Gen. H Steven Blum, chief of the National Guard Bureau, said in an interview. "They were the fastest, best-capable, most appropriate force to get there in the time allowed. And that's what it's all about."<br /><br />But one senior Army officer expressed puzzlement that active-duty troops were not summoned sooner, saying that 82nd Airborne troops were ready to move out from Fort Bragg in North Carolina on Sunday, the day before the hurricane hit.<br /><br />But the call never came, in part because military officials believed National Guard troops would get there faster and because administration civilians were worried that there could be political fallout if federal troops were forced to shoot looters, administration officials said. <br /><br />To assist state officials, Lt. Gen. James T. Conway, the director of operations for the military's Joint Staff, said that the Pentagon in August streamlined a rigid, decades-old system of deployment orders to allow the Northern Command to dispatch liaisons to work with local officials in advance of an approaching hurricane. <br /><br />The Pentagon is reviewing events from the time the hurricane reached full strength and bore down on New Orleans and five days later when Mr. Bush ordered 7,200 active-duty soldiers and Marines to the scene.<br /><br />After the hurricane passed New Orleans and the levees broke, flooding the city, it became increasingly evident that disaster response efforts were badly bogged down.<br /><br />Justice Department lawyers, who were receiving harrowing reports from the area, considered whether active-duty military units could be brought into relief operations even if state authorities gave their consent - or even if they refused.<br /><br />The issue of federalizing the response was one of a number of legal issues considered in a flurry of meetings at the Justice Department, the White House and other agencies, administration officials said.<br /><br />Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales urged Justice lawyers to interpret the federal law creatively to assist local authorities. For example, federal prosecutors prepared to expand their enforcement of some criminal statutes like anti-carjacking laws that can be prosecuted by either state or federal authorities.<br /><br />On the issue of whether the military could be deployed without the invitation of state officials, the Office of Legal Counsel, the unit within the Justice Department that provides legal advice to federal agencies, concluded that the federal government did possess authority to move in even over the objection of local officials.<br /><br />This act was last invoked in 1992 for the Los Angeles riots, but at the request of Gov. Pete Wilson of California, and has not been invoked over a governor's objections since the civil rights era - and before that, to the time of the Civil War, according to administration officials. Bush administration, Pentagon and senior military officials warned that such an extreme measure would have serious legal and political implications. <br /><br />Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld has said that deployment of National Guard soldiers to Iraq, including a brigade from Louisiana, did not affect the relief mission, but Governor Blanco said her state troops were missed. "Over the last year we have had about 5,000 out, at one time," Governor Blanco said. "They are on active duty, serving in Iraq and Afghanistan. That certainly is a factor." <br /><br />By Friday, National Guard reinforcements had arrived, and a truck convoy of 1,000 Guard soldiers brought relief supplies - and order - to the convention center area. <br /><br />Homeland Security officials say that the experience with Katrina has demonstrated flaws in the nation's plans to handle disaster.<br /><br />"This event has exposed, perhaps ultimately to our benefit, a deficiency in terms of replacing first responders who tragically may be the first casualties," Paul McHale, the assistant secretary of defense for homeland security, said.<br /><br />Michael Chertoff, the secretary of homeland security, has suggested the active-duty troops be trained and equipped to intervene if front-line emergency personnel are stricken. But the Pentagon's leadership remains unconvinced that this plan is sound, suggesting instead that the national emergency response plans should be revised to draw reinforcements initially from civilian police, firefighters, medical personnel and hazardous-waste experts in other states not affected by a disaster.<br /><br />The federal government rewrote its national emergency response plan after the Sept. 11 attacks, but it relied on local officials to manage any crisis in its opening days. But Hurricane Katrina overwhelmed local "first responders," including civilian police and the National Guard.<br /><br />At a news conference Saturday, Mr. Chertoff said: "The unusual set of challenges of conducting a massive evacuation in the context of a still dangerous flood, requires us to basically break the traditional model and create a new model, one for what you might call kind of an ultra-catastrophe. And that's one in which we are using the military, still within the framework of the law, to come in and really handle the evacuation, handle all of the associated elements. And that, of course, frees the National Guard up to do a security mission."<br /><br />Mr. McHale, while agreeing with the problem, offered different remedies. "It is foreseeable to envision a catastrophic explosion that would kill virtually every police officer within miles of the attack," he said. "Therefore we are going to have to reexamine our ability to back-fill first responder capabilities that may be degraded or destroyed during the initial event."<br /><br />He continued, "What we now have to look toward is perhaps a regional capability, probably within the civilian sector, that can be deployed to a city when that city's infrastructure and first responder capability has been destroyed by the event itself." <br /><br />Eric Schmitt and Thom Shanker reported from Washington, and Eric Lipton from Baton Rouge, La., for this article. David Johnston contributed reporting<br /><br />http://nytimes.com/2005/09/09/national/nationalspecial/09military.html?ei=5094&en=29839ee3ffe8c2ba&hp=&ex=1126238400&adxnnl=1&partner=homepage&pagewanted=print&adxnnlx=1126233967-4 9CSCLXvlaWStbJKHeNzAA
 

jtexas

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Re: President needs to clean house

Originally posted by BoatBuoy:<br /> I'm sure glad he's in command. We'd have a catastrophe if he wasn't.
do I detect a note of sarcasm? <br /><br />check out Bush Prepares Hurricane Relief Effort (ABC News) <br /><br />this was published before katrina made landfall<br /><br />
<br />CRAWFORD, Texas Aug 28, 2005 — President Bush, as he readied the federal government for a massive relief effort, on Sunday urged people in the path of Hurricane Katrina to forget anything but their safety and move to higher ground as instructed. <br /><br />...<br /><br />With forecasters warning of a category five storm, the president made sure the federal response would not be delayed by already declaring emergencies in Mississippi, Florida and Alabama just hours after a similar declaration for Louisiana. <br /><br />...<br /><br />Working from his Texas ranch, Bush participated via videoconference in a large meeting of federal, state and local disaster management officials preparing for the storm's onslaught. Separately, he spoke by phone with the governors of Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama and Florida. <br /><br />...<br /><br />In Washington, the Federal Emergency Management Agency was coordinating relief efforts sending water, food and other supplies to staging centers in the Southeast. FEMA was moving supplies from logistics centers in Atlanta and Denton, Texas, to areas closer to where authorities believe the storm will create a need, spokeswoman Nicol Andrews said. <br />
See there? Bush done good! and I mean that most sincerely.<br /><br />Do I still think he could of gone sooner? Yes. <br />He could have put on waders & a flack jacket & strolled down Bourbon Street with a strawberry daquiri in one hand & a parasol in the other. Either that or else a meeting & press conference with the Governor in Baton Rouge; a gesture that says "these Americans are important...[yada yada yada standard political speech]" that would trump the race card (which was pretty darn predictable, IMHO). But don't mention Trent Lott's beach house (that was a faux pax if you ask me).<br /><br />Am I a bushbasher? Don't feel like one, more like a Monday morning quarterback. Hope that don't hurt yall's feelings.
 

wildbill59

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Re: President needs to clean house

Already got the bomb shelter, it's an undergound concrete 2500 gal. water cistren under an addition to my house. Haven't got the air filtration thing down yet. Works great for a tornado shelter.<br /><br />So have we established FEMA's role in when they just come bustin in? Or what equipment,personel they would need to respond to major events. Just think of the mobile caravan circling the Southeast during hurricane season. Like the talk about how tall the levees should have been, at what costs are we willng spend for this reactionary rescue force? <br /><br />The most cost effective plan would be in the Guard of each state having the equipment,personel and training to react. But this can't happen when they're thousands of miles away.
 

ErikDC

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Re: President needs to clean house

Suggestion, go to bed and sleep! The stress has been adding up big time, do yourself a favor and hit the pillow. At the rate that you folks are talking about it, everyone will be suffering from Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome. Seriously.
 

wildbill59

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Re: President needs to clean house

Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld has said that deployment of National Guard soldiers to Iraq, including a brigade from Louisiana, did not affect the relief mission, but Governor Blanco said her state troops were missed
Anybody know when they deploy over to Iraq do they take the most highly trained, best equiped guard troopers or is it a mix of greenheads, trained personel and old farts like me that need a nap in the afternoon? No offense to the older population implied.
 

jtexas

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Re: President needs to clean house

wildbill, I had no idea you Wisconsinners were so up close & personal with political corruption.<br /><br />Not to try & one-up ya or anything, but Edwin Edwards, Louisiana's governor before last (his fourth term, but not consecutively) was indicted (but not convicted) during his third term in the eighties. His opponent for his fourth term was David Duke, which explains how he got elected. He's currently serving federal time for racketeering involving riverboat casino licenses.<br /><br />You're a bit more cynical than I am...hate to hear you think the constitution isn't relevant anymore - let me just point out a couple things:<br /><br />you ask:<br />
How can anybody explain how we, citizens with rights guaranteeded by a const. give up those rights via "the Patriot Act 1 and 2"? When we give up our const. rights doesn't this require a 2/3 votes of the states? Notice how us as citizens are subject now to a tribunial, not a jury of our peers?
the Constitution of the United States:<br />"Section VIII. The Congress shall have power to...[9] To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court"<br /><br />you state:<br />
The idea that the "guard" was to protect the state no longer exists.
Not sure if this addresses your concern, but it's the "National" Guard because...<br /><br />the Constitution of the United States:<br />"Section X [3] No State shall, without the consent of Congress, ... keep troops and ships of war in time of peace"<br /><br />Hope this helps.
 

Ralph 123

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Re: President needs to clean house

Cousin's Guard unit in MA was support and they used equipment in the field rather than deploying their own...
 

KaGee

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Re: President needs to clean house

Do I still think he could of gone sooner? Yes. <br />
J.... Let's role back the tape to 2004, in the heat of the election comes Hurricane Ivan. Bush on the ground in Florida reviewing the damage.<br /><br />The folks crying he should have been to the Gulf coast faster in 2005 are the same crowd that were harping at him for being "in the way" in Florida. <br /><br />You just can't please some people.
 

txswinner

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Re: President needs to clean house

And all I meant to say was it is not George's fault but he needs to clean it up. No more Karl Rowe deals.
 

kenimpzoom

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Re: President needs to clean house

Originally posted by Ralph:<br /> It appears that there was criminal neglect here. When you have a reckless disregard for human life and people die, you go to jail. Now, I can show you what things I think constitute that if you'd like... but I'm not a lawyer. I only play one on the Internet :)
The only people whoc should be charged with criminal neglect are the parents of children who didnt heed the mandatory evac.<br /><br />Ken
 

jtexas

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Re: President needs to clean house

Originally posted by KaGee:<br /> J.... Let's role back the tape to 2004, in the heat of the election comes Hurricane Ivan. Bush on the ground in Florida reviewing the damage.<br /><br />The folks crying he should have been to the Gulf coast faster in 2005 are the same crowd that were harping at him for being "in the way" in Florida. <br /><br />You just can't please some people.
Good point. Not sure I agree, though...my opinion, it would be more accurate to say "you can't please all the people." You'll please some by making an early appearance, and others by waiting until later. Which is better...it's a guess.<br /><br />Please do roll the tape, it would be interesting to find out who the Florida harpers were.
 

QC

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Re: President needs to clean house

DHS just pulled the FEMA guy off of Katrina . . . Head of DHS did it. GW signed off on it.
 

txswinner

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Re: President needs to clean house

That is the kind of action I want to see from the President. Now let's take a look at the DHS head. He had the ultimate authority from the President.
 

BrettNC

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Re: President needs to clean house

A whole lot more needs to be discussed about the Louisiana governor and New Orleans mayor. Mostly the governor, who has the power over the national guard in her state. The state is what primarily coordinates efforts after a disaster.<br /><br />It's interesting to me that there is very little discussion on this.<br /><br />This was a disaster of epic size. Mistakes will be made regardless. But it is funny that the great majority of the conversation is turned toward not just to the federal government as a whole, not to a department, but to one man.<br /><br />I am beginning to see a pattern here.
 

POINTER94

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Re: President needs to clean house

What an arrogant group we are. Well who is going to pay to get every city north of the mason dixon line ready for a 25ft snow/ice storm?<br /><br />Who is going to pay to make every building in Western California earthquake proof. The poor will suffer and that makes us racists if we don't.<br /><br />The mountain states should all be ready for avalanches. Let's get 25-30,000 troops at the base of every mountain.<br /><br />Based on the number of troops you people are asking for we will need to have recuiters in EVERY SCHOOL. Who is it trying to keep recruiters out of the schools? The whiners who are blaming the feds for adhering to the constitution.<br /><br />Really bad things happen when you are arrogant enough to believe you are stronger than mother nature. When things go unforseeably bad, it isn't racist, or a liberal or conservative thing. The hate being spewed fails to understand the outpouring of cash, and goods for those who lost everything. To those who see and act it isn't about gaining a political advantage, it is about caring for your fellow man. Screaming racism, or class envy, or assigning blame shouldn't have been the first step, but the last. But lets look at who has accepted responsiblity. Bush. Thats it. Who is running around looking to point fingers or play politics? Everyone but Bush.<br /><br />Unless you have your head completely up you butt, the law is clear who is responsible for natural disaster. LOCAL AND STATE AGENCIES.
 

jtexas

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Re: President needs to clean house

Brett, look a little farther. this thread was started to discuss what Bush might do. Plenty of discussion on the board about state & local.<br /><br />Pointer I don't know what you're about. This is just a bunch of concerned citizens trying to figure out what in the blazes is going on, exchanging ideas, news, opinions, getting feedback, and this is where we come to do that. What's "arrogant"? I got some opinions, that makes me arrogant? Get off your high horse, mister.<br /><br />As a nation, I want us to be prepared to respond to the needs of disaster victims. Period. If Wisconsin gets overwhelmed by some disaster, I want Wisconsin to get the help it needs. That's one of the things I want America to do. That make me arrogant? That's my opinion; are you the one who is going to tell me that I got no right to an opinion? Or not to express it on this forum?<br /><br />You think the federal government has no business getting involved in disaster relief, then say so without all the freaking hateful name-calling.<br /><br />And by the way, Bush ain't accepted any responsibility, he hasn't fired anybody, and don't expect him to. He's not the type to accept responsibility. He plays politics with the best of 'em.
 

Ralph 123

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Re: President needs to clean house

New Orleans ignored its own plans<br />By Audrey Hudson and James G. Lakely<br />THE WASHINGTON TIMES<br />Published September 9, 2005<br /><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />The city of New Orleans followed virtually no aspect of its own emergency management plan in the disaster caused by Hurricane Katrina. <br /> <br />New Orleans officials also failed to implement most federal guidelines, which stated that the Superdome was not a safe shelter for thousands of residents. <br /> <br />The official "City of New Orleans Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan" states that the mayor can call for a mandatory citywide evacuation, but the Louisiana governor alone is given the power to carry out the evacuation, which Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco has yet to do. She "begged" people to leave before the storm and is still asking the few thousand holdouts to evacuate the flooded city. <br /> <br />Small-scale evacuations, according to the plan, are to be handled under the standard operation plans of city firefighters and police officers. <br /> <br />"However, due to the sheer size and number of persons to be evacuated, should a major tropical weather system or other catastrophic event threaten or impact the area, specifically directed long-range planning and coordination of resources and responsibilities must be undertaken," the New Orleans plan says. <br /> <br />The plan does not say how such an evacuation should be executed, but states that a full evacuation of the city would take 72 hours, and that the city knows that there are "approximately 100,000 citizens of New Orleans [who] do not have means of personal transportation." <br /> <br />The guidelines of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, which has little jurisdiction to act on its own but is designed to work with local authorities, suggests that local evacuation plans "coordinate the use of school buses and drivers to support evacuation efforts." <br /> <br />Neither New Orleans Mayor C. Ray Nagin nor Mrs. Blanco ordered buses to take people out of the city before the storm. Two days after the storm hit, the governor issued an order for buses to roll, but by then hundreds of buses in New Orleans were underwater and useless. <br /> <br />Both the mayor and the governor asked residents who couldn't evacuate themselves to go to the Superdome, which in the days after the storm was a scene of chaos and violence as it became an island in a submerged city. <br /> <br />Former FEMA Director Joseph Allbaugh told Fox News last week that when he headed the agency, he refused to allow the Superdome to be used as a shelter during hurricanes. The city, however, ignored FEMA guidelines that designated "supershelters" should be located outside of floodplains and outside of Category 4 storm-surge zones. <br /> <br />FEMA has been harshly criticized by Democrats in Congress, who have demanded that Director Michael D. Brown resign. But FEMA was in place as the storm approached and the Louisiana National Guard delivered seven trailers with food and water Aug. 29 and another seven truckloads on Aug. 30 to the Superdome to help feed the 25,000 people inside.[ <br /> <br />Confusion reigned in Katrina's aftermath. A state-of-the-art mobile hospital developed with Homeland Security grants to respond to disasters and staffed by 100 doctors and paramedics was left stranded in Mississippi because Louisiana officials would not let it deploy to New Orleans. <br /> <br />Red Cross officials say the organization was well positioned to provide food, water and hygiene products to the thousands stranded in New Orleans. But the state refused to let them deliver the aid. <br /> <br />"Access to New Orleans is controlled by the National Guard and local authorities, and while we are in constant contact with them, we simply cannot enter New Orleans against their orders," the Red Cross said last week on its Web site.
 

txswinner

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Re: President needs to clean house

Ralph, I thought you said the media always mislead the public and was nothing but a bunch of left wing liberals. True, you do not have a clue.
 

Ralph 123

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Re: President needs to clean house

Winner, you really do need to learn how to read...<br /><br />
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BrettNC

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Re: President needs to clean house

You know, I know, and everybody else knows that the fact the state government has the majority of the responsibility for response is being ignored. <br /><br />And yet we are still taking about Bush.<br /><br />I am not referring to the just what is being discussed on this board. Turn on your TV.
 
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