Libya to destroy all WMDs

Ralph 123

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Libya, in negotiations with the US and UK over the last 9 months has sgreed to dismantle all WMD programs and allow international inspectors in and go where they want and destroy what they want.<br /><br />This is a direct result of Ameican resolve in Afghanastan and Iraq no matter how you slice it.
 

SCO

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Re: Libya to destroy all WMDs

I had another thought about it, a paranoid one, that Kadaffi knows a serious conflict is coming, and wants to be clear when the buttons start getting pushed. Reagan did a lot to adjust his attitude. Remember the line in the sand?
 

Link

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Re: Libya to destroy all WMDs

Ralph & SCO you are so right on here. It just hit the news here (talk radio) watch the Left not celebrate. This is called Peace through Strength.<br />Once the Trolling starts I won't comment again.<br /><br />Link
 

streadway

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Re: Libya to destroy all WMDs

reagan also<br />1982. President Reagan ordered the Defense Department and the CIA to supply Iraq's military with intelligence information, advice, and hardware for battle after being advised to do so by CIA Director William Casey. Former Reagan National Security official Howard Teicher said that Casey "personally spearheaded the effort to insure that Iraq had sufficient military weapons, ammunition and vehicles to avoid losing the Iran-Iraq war." The U.S. continued to provide thi type of intelligence to Iraq until 1988<br /><br />February 1982. The Reagan administration - despite stern objections from Congress- removed Iraq from the U.S. State Department's list of states sponsoring terrorism<br /><br />1983. The Reagan administration approved the sale of 60 civilian Hughes helicopters to Iraq, in spite of the fact it was widely understood that the helicopters could be weaponized<br /><br />1984. Iraq's use of chemical weapons against Iran increased significantly. The U.S. was informed of Iraq's use of chemical weapons later that year<br /><br />"Early 80s." Diplomats brought photographs to the United Nations and several national capitals showing the swollen, blistered and burned bodies of injured and dead Iranians who had been victims of Iraqi chemical attacks.<br /><br />1983. Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Egypt supplied Iraq with U.S. howitzers, helicopters, bombs and other weapons with the secret approval of the Reagan administration. [Phythian 1997, pg. 35] President Reagan personally requested Italian Prime Minister Guilio Andreotti to funnel arms to Iraq.<br /><br />December 2, 1983. The U.S. State Department invited Bechtel officials to Washington to discuss plans for constructing an Iraq-Jordan oil pipeline. Former Bechtel president George Shultz was U.S. Secretary of State at the time<br /><br />December 19, 1983. President Reagan dispatched U.S. envoy to the Middle East Donald Rumsfeld, to express the administration's intention to “resume [U.S.] diplomatic relations with Iraq.<br /><br />December 20, 1983. U.S. Special Envoy Donald Rumsfeld, who at the time was CEO of the pharmaceutical company, Searle, personally met with Saddam Hussein in an attempt to reestablish diplomatic relations with Iraq.<br /><br />1984. The CIA secretly provided Iraqi intelligence with instructions on how to "calibrate" its mustard gas attacks on Iranian troops.<br /><br />March 6, 1984. The U.S. State Department reported that "available evidence" indicated Iraq was using "lethal chemical weapons", specifically mustard gas, against Iran<br /><br />March 23, 1984. Iran accused Iraq of poisoning 600 of its soldiers with mustard gas and Tabun nerve gas. On that same day, the UPI wire service reported that a team of UN experts had concluded that "Mustard gas laced with a nerve agent has been used on Iranian soldiers. Meanwhile, Donald Rumsfeld held talks with foreign minister Tariq Aziz."<br /><br />March 26, 1984. The Reagan administration sent Donald Rumsfeld to Baghdad again. [American Gulf War Veterans Association 9/10/2001] While in Iraq, Rumsfeld discussed the proposed Iraq-Jordan pipeline that was to be built by Bechtel. That same day, a UN investigation reported on Iraq's use of chemical weapons against Iraq. "[C]hemical weapons in the form of aerial bombs have been used in the areas inspected in Iraq by the specialists," the report said. [New York Times, 3/27/84 cited in Institute for Policy Studies, 3/24/03<br /><br />November 26, 1984. The United States Government re-established full diplomatic ties with Baghdad [Gwertzman 11-27-1984] even though it was fully aware that Iraq was using chemical weapons in its war against Iran<br /><br />- were May 2 1986. “[T]wo batches of bacillus anthracis - the micro-organism that causes anthrax shipped . . . along with two batches of the bacterium clostridium botulinum - the agent that causes deadly botulism poisoning”- to the Iraqi Ministry of Higher Education. [Sunday Herald 9/8/2002<br /><br />August 31, 1987. One batch each of salmonella and E coli was sent to the Iraqi State Company for Drug Industries with the approval of the U.S. Department of Commerce<br /><br />January thru February 1988. The U.S. Commerce Department allowed for the export of equipment to Iraq for its SCUD missile program. Iraq's acquisition of the new equipment allowed it to increase the range of its SCUD missiles. [Committee on Government Operations, House, "Strengthening the Export Licensing System," 2 July 1991<br /><br />March 1988. According to several accounts, Iraq used U.S.-supplied Bell helicopters [Washington Post 3/11/1991; Weinstein and Rempel 2/13/1991] to deploy chemical weapons during its campaign to recapture lost territories. One of the towns that was within the conflict zone was the Kurdish village of Halabja, which had a population of about 70,000. Between 3,200 and 5,000 Halabja civilians were reported killed that spring by poison gas. <br /><br />March 1989. CIA director William Webster acknowledged to Congress that Iraq was the largest producer of chemical weapons in the world. [U.S. Congress, Senate, Committee on Foreign Relations, "Chemical and Biological Weapons<br /><br />1989. Rep. Henry Gonzalez (D-Tex) stated that in spite of the CIA and the Bush administration's knowledge that Iraq’s Ministry of Industry and Military Industrialization (MIMI) "controlled entities were involved in Iraq's clandestine nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons programs and missile programs ... the Bush administration [approved] dozens of export licenses that [allowed] United States and foreign firms to ship sophisticated U.S. dual-use equipment to MIMI-controlled weapons factories<br /><br /> <br />July 18 thru August 1 1990. The Bush administration approved $4.8 million in sales of advanced technology products to Iraq's "MIMI" and "Saad 16" research centers. "MIMI" had been determined two years prior to be a development facility for chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons programs. And in 1989, the U.S. had learned that "Saad 16" was also involved in the development of chemical and nuclear weapons. [Committee on Government Operations, House, "Strengthening the Export Licensing System" cited in Hurd and Rangwala 12/12/2001]
 

Ralph 123

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Re: Libya to destroy all WMDs

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?
 

SCO

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Re: Libya to destroy all WMDs

No doubt about it, lay down with dogs and you get fleas. What do you propose carp king. Do you want us to throw our hands up? we're not worthy??? What?
 

plywoody

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Re: Libya to destroy all WMDs

I think the point is to be careful what you do with these countries, as it can come back to bite you if you are no careful.<br /><br />While I almost always prefer a diplomatic conclusion to a situation rather than a military one, I am going to reserve judgement on this Khadafi one.<br />Somehow I just don't see Khadafi cowering in his boots over us, and if he is really doing this, he is doing it for a reason--and of course Lybia has oil, which we want. Simple explainations, while handy, are rarely accurate, I am afraid.<br /><br />It does seem a change in direction from our goal of liberty and democracy for the whole world--which is of course the latest stated reason why we invaded Iraq.
 

jimchere

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Re: Libya to destroy all WMDs

Ply,<br />Thanks for your opinions and I enjoy the mental stimulation from your thoughts. <br />I'll counter that Libya is different than Iraq. Libya is a case where the engrained dictator isn't necessarily living with an ultimate reign of terror such as Saddam. <br />The "fine" Col Ghadaffi has certainly had some second thoughts about his ways, and these "second thoughts" began with the "ain't putting up with your BS" by Ronnie "the gipper" himself in '86. <br />Someone else leading the free world (GWB) is seen by these types as another gipper. Now, look at the country of Libya. Highly educated population with an old dictator who's already caved once to the "infidels" and, from that region of N.Africa, are much more cosmopolitan in nature and willing to act more like a Turkey or Morocco.<br />Bottom line, that extra ounce of pressure finally got him to fold.<br />There you go, my .0002 non-copper penny worth.
 

Boomyal

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Re: Libya to destroy all WMDs

Hey Ralph:<br /><br />"This is a direct result of Ameican resolve in Afghanastan and Iraq no matter how you slice it."<br /><br />Guess Howard Dean, et al, can't see the obvious, huh? I'm beginning to wonder If I should vote for him after all. :p
 

plywoody

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Re: Libya to destroy all WMDs

Hey, if he is really folding, I am all for it, no matter what the reason.<br /><br />I am reserving judgement a bit, as I don't think it is that easy, or that a little bit of fear, is going to make the old tiger change his stripes.<br /><br />I want to see the fine print on what we are doing--the headline, while encouraging, is not always reliable.
 

mellowyellow

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Re: Libya to destroy all WMDs

as a sidenote, both GW and Tony Blair made the<br />same comment that these actions by Libya means<br />that they should now be welcomed as part of the<br />international community (whatever that means)...
 

mattttt25

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Re: Libya to destroy all WMDs

it's good news no matter how you look at it. personally, i think these dictators in the middle east felt safe up to now. yeah, we may fly planes around them, drop a few bombs, tell them to get in line, etc. but really, we've never gone this far. in simple terms, we came, we saw, we kicked *** . we showed up, we decided to stay, and we didn't give up on finding saddam. if you remember, he could have taken 100 mil, and left the country, and been sipping margarittas on a beach somewhere. now he will either sit in a cell or be executed. if i were khadafi, that would scare me a bit. i'd rather get in line, do what the u.s. asks, and go on with the high life. why wouldn't you?
 

rolmops

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Re: Libya to destroy all WMDs

Do you think that having been treated by the western world, the african countries AND the arab world like a rabid dog for more than a decade and having been tied to a wheel chair might have softened mr Gaddaffi just a teensy bit?<br />Trading away a program that was an empty hull anyway, seems like rather a cheap price for acceptance.Add to this the willingness to pay Lockerby victims families(Panam flight)damages and we might actually see a premeditaded effort of Gaddaffi to move back into the fold of civilizaton.<br />Yes it is positive,but hardly a victory for either Bush or Blaire.Seems more like Gaddaffi is throwing them a bone while pursuing his own agenda.
 

plywoody

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Re: Libya to destroy all WMDs

From a pure logical, empirical standpoint, Khadafi had everything to gain and nothing to lose by this course of action. Deploying wmd's, even if you have them, is not a winning strategy in any situation, so what good are they to him?<br /><br />Getting sanctions lifted, and trading oil and getting western dollars, has in any situation got to be a bonus---as long as their country in not threatened by its neighbors. I would not doubt that somehow we entered into some sort of protection pact, but I would not even have a problem with that--though some of the victims of Khadafi may.
 

streadway

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Re: Libya to destroy all WMDs

my point was, it is our past politics that we are in the shape that we are in.the reason he is willing to give it all up is GB is taking names and kicking BUTT.
 

62_Kiwi

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Re: Libya to destroy all WMDs

I reckon Gaddafi's been told he's next on the list after Saddam - simple as that....and after the events of the last couple of years, I don't think anybody would doubt the resolve of the Bush administration.<br /><br />So Gaddafi has no logical choice but to do what he's doing. It's great to see progress like this at last. America's foreign policy is working - if you ask me. ;)
 

Ralph 123

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Re: Libya to destroy all WMDs

From a pure logical, empirical standpoint
These people aren't logical the way we understand the concept. If they were, they never would have flown jets into the WTC. Never would have refused to cooperate with the UN if they really didn't have WMDs. (All Saddam had to do was be seen as fully cooperating and he never would have been invaded) Never would send their young into cafes to blow themselves up.<br /><br />I heard an interview with a negotiations expert who has worked in the Middle East for decades and even negotiated with Iran for Jimmy Carter during the hostage crisis. He said, in the Middle East, there is no such thing as the concept of reciprocity. That is, they won't be nice to you simply becuase you are nice to them. They don't grasp the concept of returning favors, etc. They see kindness as a sign of weakness. The culture, in that sense, is more Darwininan - survival of the strongest.<br /><br />Do you think that most people in the Middle East, leaders included, have any real understanding of the US? Our size and strength and true resolve when we truly feel threatened? That we are a nation that believes and practices reciprocity? I don't. I think for the first time, they are starting to understand. The amazing military successes in Afhganastan and Iraq has shocked many.
 

plywoody

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Re: Libya to destroy all WMDs

You have to differentiate between the terrorists and the sovereign states.<br />There is no doubt the terrorists are not logical, and one would be hard pressed to define a strategy, or a goal, from their actions.<br /><br />Soverign states, like Iraq, or Lybia, are just a bit different. They think they have to appear strong for fear if they appear weak, they lose respect (and fear) from the region they are in, and risk either an outside invasion, or an inside insurgence.<br /><br />We put Saddam between the proverbial rock and the hard place by demanding that he announce and prove that he was weak---Clearly his military was weak as a result of all the sanctions and such- and if his neighbors believed he had no wmd's or other methods of retaliation, he would be an easy target for his neighbors--but of course defying the US and appearing strong (or trying to) sealed his fate.<br /><br />Lybia must have factored in the prospect of appearing weak to the rest of the mid east with this recent move, and made some sort of contingency plan of some sort, including agreements from us or their neighbors that no attacks would come perhaps?<br /><br />It is a fair bit Darwinian over there, and it may be a fair bit misguided, but the actions of particular states are generally reasonably logical and predictable, as opposed to the terrorists, at least.
 

Ralph 123

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Re: Libya to destroy all WMDs

A big part of the problem is that there is a good deal of intersection between the States and the terrorists - Lybia w/ Pan Am for example. The Saudis with Al Qaeda. Syria with Hammas. etc, etc. The line is badly blurred. Their "logic" differs greatly from our "logic." You may greatly dislike Bush, but one thing is certain, they know when he says something he really means it.
 

SCO

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Re: Libya to destroy all WMDs

Those are interesting points PW, about Saddam between a rock and a hard place. One would almost be sympathetic for him, he wanting to comply but fearful to...and I am not suggesting that you are sympathizing with him. If true, fear of his own shiite(sp?)/kurd population might have been a big factor. Government can be cooperative with willing compliance from the citizens like in a democracy, but for the dictator brute force is the mechanism for compliance. The more horrific the despot, the greater force that is required. Whatever the case, his downfall was a result of his own horrific behaviors if he was afraid that he would be oerwhelmed without the threat of WMD.
 
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