Difficulty and HONOR; Expediency and DISHONOR

[OldMercsRule]

Hey Folks, It's been a great two weeks of worthless and distructive news over minor stupid scandals (or attempts to create scandals over nothing) or outright distructive issues as PUSHED by our BROKEN MSM. We all had to hear non-stop about the self inflicted demise of a Liberal Elitist, (Imus), who pandered each day to other Liberal Media and Pol Elitists n' snickered together for years about off colored remarks (and Imus had some from the other side as well). It's good to know that Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton shall be the arbitrators of what slights are acceptable or not on the Media, and over what period of time they can be allowed, (for a hyjack fee of course). NBC continued it's hard Left course with the total publication of exactly what Cho wanted every American to see over and over, and the anti gun mission has more crazies then ever trying to get the attention that Cho got! Alberto Gonzales provided hope for Libs and Democrats who want to criminalize politics. NOW SOMETHING THAT IS ACTUALLY IMPORTANT: Time Mag one page article: McCain v. Reid by William Kristol. It is only a one page read but frames the most important issue of our time.

Http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,1613027,00.html

Hope this linc works (as it has commas in it, which never worked on the old SW). I, for one: do not agree with John McCain on many issues, (freedom of speech, size and scope of government, to name a few issues that are important to me). That said: He is clearly a Great American HERO, and a VERY RARE STATESMAN LEADER in this upside down world that is full of shallow self absorbed p*** ants. Men or Women with his level of courage, both: RAW PHYSICAL COURAGE and POLITICAL COURAGE; are very rare in the modern domestic self absorbed baby boomer dominated world. This man is a GIANT, and history shall reserve a special place for him: win or loose. Thanks for readin'. JR

 

[OldMercsRule]

Re: Difficulty and HONOR; Expediency and DISHONOR

Three more related articles: "Iraq war is "lost": US Democrat leader". (Guess Who)?

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=070419184534.ileoeb47&show_article=1

"Can Petraeus Pull It Off?"

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/013/551cokdv.asp

"The Emerging Axis Of Good"

http://www.investors.com/editorial/editorialcontent.asp?secid=1501&status=article&id=261960866732007

 

[rolmops]

Re: Difficulty and HONOR; Expediency and DISHONOR

Murky,you got some brave talk there.
Only problem is that countries like ours do not deal in that way.Being a world power is not about good or bad.It is about interests.
Terms like staying the course and axis of evil are propaganda slogans which are meant to provide a good feeling for the folks back home.
Whether or not we will stay in Iraq can only be measured in terms of strategic and economical interest.And in the case of a democracy in terms of what gets the politicians re-elected.
The Bush administration did not do its homework before invading Iraq.It put wishful thinking and over confidence ahead of experience.
For any politician to support this war is flirting with political suicide and the only reason why there are still that many politicians that support the war has a lot to do with where their re-election campaign monies come from.
As for the soldiers fighting that war,they are only tools in the hands of politicians,used to further political and monetary interests.They and their families are the victims of adventures to further the interests of politicians and their monetary masters.
The goal of the Iraq invasion was imposing Pax Americana on the middle east.
It would guarantee an uninterrupted supply of oil. Except it blew up in our faces.
By now,the only thing we can do there is damage control and try to prevent all out war there after we leave.
Analysis of the current situation shows us the American goal might be attained,but in reaction to and not as a result of the invasion.
The mainly bedouin arab(descended) moslem Sunni world is being threatened by the mainly peasant non arab(descended) moslem shi-ite world.What we witness these days is an ingathering of all the sunni bedouin tribes in all of the middle-east in order to resist and defeat the old enemy from a thousand years ago once again.As a side effect ,we see that the sunni arab world is willing to make peace with Israel,so as not to have a thorn in its side while the real war is being fought.(historical note.Biblical Israel always sided with Egypt against the empires of the north -Persia, Babylon)
The results of this Iraq adventure are very unpredictable at this point.
Our best hope for now would be the emergence of a cold war situation between sunni and shi-ite. A hot war would probably cause a global crisis.

 

[Vlad D Impeller]

Re: Difficulty and HONOR; Expediency and DISHONOR

As i sit here enjoying my falafel, it has become very interesting to see how this is going to play out.

 

[PW2]

Re: Difficulty and HONOR; Expediency and DISHONOR

What Rolmops said.

In addition, what Reid said was foolish. Even had it been true, it would still be foolish.

What McCain said was merely delusional.

First of all, by any objective measure, we have already won the war in Iraq. The military objective was to affect regime change, and we clearly achieved that. Now the part about leaving a stable Iraq, capable of governing itself--That is neither a military objective, nor is it even measurable as an objective--it is a completely subjective goal, that could mean anything to anyone. How can one "lose" in that case?

Second, McCain's (and anyone else that sees a military surge as the path to success in Iraq) insistence of the military escalation as the answer is just plain mind boggling. It reminds a person of the old bumper sticker "The beatings will continue until morale improves".

To the extent success can be achieved in Iraq, it will be a political settlement achieved with the help of all Iraq's neighbors, including Iran, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Israel,... et al. I certainly would be more supportive of continued US military presense over there, if it were seen as somehow an interim step while political settlement were achieved, rather than a strategy unto itself.

 

[Haut Medoc]

Re: Difficulty and HONOR; Expediency and DISHONOR

I like your new avatar Murky......
Is he tuning up that brain cell?...... ​

 

[ricksrster]

Re: Difficulty and HONOR; Expediency and DISHONOR

Second, McCain's (and anyone else that sees a military surge as the path to success in Iraq) insistence of the military escalation as the answer is just plain mind boggling. It reminds a person of the old bumper sticker "The beatings will continue until morale improves".

Are you trying to say that if we give up and quit fighting the bad guys will also give up and quit fighting? If we are nice the bad bad guys will be nice too?

 

[OldMercsRule]

Re: Difficulty and HONOR; Expediency and DISHONOR

I like your new avatar Murky......
Is he tuning up that brain cell?...... ​

Yup!! Tom, (Xtraham), helped me with some great ones that he found, (he also had a loud mouth that looked like a dragster that I was real tempted to use). Ya think a tune up of the ol' cell could help Murky understand PW2 n' Rolmops? JR

 

[Coors]

Re: Difficulty and HONOR; Expediency and DISHONOR

Reid wasn't foolish, he was a total idiot; congress needs to call for his resignation (sigh).

 

[OldMercsRule]

Re: Difficulty and HONOR; Expediency and DISHONOR

Murky,you got some brave talk there.

I agree Mr. McCain is one of a kind. Very impressive to me, and maybe only me.

Only problem is that countries like ours do not deal in that way.Being a world power is not about good or bad.It is about interests.

Hmmmmm, I did not think these articles put this heavy matter in "good or bad" terms but I did cite four different pieces, (guess I need to re read them). I think it is in the world's and the USA's interest to have a stable pro West government in Iraq. I may be alone with Mr. McCain in that thought. Obviously that is not important at all to Harry Reid, Mr Schumer and their Democrats who view this as a way to pick up Senate seats in 2008.

Terms like staying the course and axis of evil are propaganda slogans which are meant to provide a good feeling for the folks back home.

Agreed. One term is stupid, distructive and totally inacurate: "stay the course", that is why Democrats. Liberals and the MSM repeat it all the time. The other term: "axis of evil", was very accurate and spot on.

Whether or not we will stay in Iraq can only be measured in terms of strategic and economical interest.

If this were true: we would stay as long as it takes. It is real easy to examine three earlier wars for instruction on this very simple corncept. WW2. How long did we stay in Germany and Japan? What were the results? Korea. How long did we stay in Korea? What were the results? Vietnam. How long did we stay in Vietnam? What were the results? Hint: the MSM and the Dems don't want you to remember, but our allies: you know: the ones who fought beside us, died horribly: 3,000,000 of 'em. proud of that: are ya? See the VC museum for the REAL VC hero: John F Kerry! The one that more Democrats voted for then anyone in history. Makes ya REAL proud doesn't it?

And in the case of a democracy in terms of what gets the politicians re-elected.

Yer right here. Democrats expanded their margins in the Senate and House after our defeat in 1975. They captured the Presidency in 1976. The sun almost set on America in that period. 20% + interest rates; thermostats at 68 degrees n' sweaters; humiliation at the hands of Iran. Those were the days: my friends! Maybe Obama or Edwards or Hillary can bring back the glory days!!

The Bush administration did not do its homework before invading Iraq.It put wishful thinking and over confidence ahead of experience.

Yah, heard this only once before! Please name any war in the history of the world that was perfect. Our enemies luv this Liberal Democrat propaganda.

For any politician to support this war is flirting with political suicide and the only reason why there are still that many politicians that support the war has a lot to do with where their re-election campaign monies come from.

That is a real problem for this Great Country. We can now no longer defeat any potential adversary. As long as the Democrats use the blood of our soldiers to further their own carreers, (even after voting to take us to war initially), and Democrats voters concur with this dishonor, we are totally defenceless. All any enemy has to do is find a source of idiots that can be cornvinced there are 72 virgins waiting if they just blow up babies and the MSM will amplify it causing our surrender. If Democrat voters do not wake up, we will never be able to defend ourselves again.

As for the soldiers fighting that war,they are only tools in the hands of politicians,used to further political and monetary interests.They and their families are the victims of adventures to further the interests of politicians and their monetary masters.

You can say that about most Democrats and some Republicans. Not: John McCain!!!!!

The goal of the Iraq invasion was imposing Pax Americana on the middle east.
It would guarantee an uninterrupted supply of oil.

I would not choose those words, but I will not argue here.

Except it blew up in our faces.

No it didn't. War is always hard, please look at history. We, (the Liberals and Democrats) are just incouraging defeat, and impowering our enemy. Victory can be had.

By now,the only thing we can do there is damage control and try to prevent all out war there after we leave.

Surrender to Islamo Facists can not be a good thing.

Analysis of the current situation shows us the American goal might be attained,but in reaction to and not as a result of the invasion.

Not much chance if Hary Reid and the Democrats have their way. They want defeat, they know they will profit politically from such a defeat as they did in 1975. This is a well worn play book.

The mainly bedouin(descended) moslem Sunni world is being threatened by the mainly peasant(descended) moslem shi-ite world.What we witness these days is an ingathering of all the sunni bedouin tribes in all of the middle-east in order to resist and defeat the old enemy from a thousand years ago once again.As a side effect ,we see that the sunni arab world is willing to make peace with Israel,so as not to have a thorn in its side while the real war is being fought.(historical note.Biblical Israel always sided with Egypt against the empires of the north -Persia, Babylon)
The results of this Iraq adventure are very unpredictable at this point.

If they thought they were facing a pre 1965 America: we would get what we want, as they would fear us. A post 1975 America is very weak, and very easy to beat. It is the enemy within.


Our best hope for now would be the emergence of a cold war situation between sunni and shi-ite. A hot war would probably cause a global crisis.

You can hope all you want. When your actions encourage bombs and head cutting: you get more. History is very clear. Americans will get a history lession when we surrender. Respectfully JR

 

[OldMercsRule]

Re: Difficulty and HONOR; Expediency and DISHONOR

What Rolmops said.

In addition, what Reid said was foolish. Even had it been true, it would still be foolish.

Yah: THE TRUTH IS FOOLISH. Democrat voters would not want to engage in any critical thinkin'. HARRY REID STATED THE PLAIN TRUTH. John Kerry let his true disdain for American soldiers roll off his lips with not problem at all. THE TRUTH HURTS? Nah, not with Democtrats. Their tollerence for dishonor, criminality, self dealing can be examined real easliy. Just ponder Ted Kennedy's wonderful carrer. Do you think he would have been re elected repeatedly as a Republican after driving off a bridge, where a young lady died? How about Hastings (the impeached Judge), Jefferson, ($90,000 in the freezer), Murtha, (ever see the abscam tape?), Barney Frank, (runnin' a gay ***** house out of his home). The list goes on and on, these are just a few of the dishonored Democrat heros in current power. A Democrat can vote to send our soldiers to death, and then just say they are sorry and change their mind with no backlash, and better career prospects. Those Democrats need to be shown the door by their own supporters, or we are in trouble.

What McCain said was merely delusional.

Yah: Honor is DELUSIONAL!!!!!!!

First of all, by any objective measure, we have already won the war in Iraq. The military objective was to affect regime change, and we clearly achieved that. Now the part about leaving a stable Iraq, capable of governing itself--That is neither a military objective, nor is it even measurable as an objective--it is a completely subjective goal, that could mean anything to anyone. How can one "lose" in that case?

Hmmmmm, ya musta have forgotton Germany, Japan, n' Korea. Do you know any history?

Second, McCain's (and anyone else that sees a military surge as the path to success in Iraq) insistence of the military escalation as the answer is just plain mind boggling. It reminds a person of the old bumper sticker "The beatings will continue until morale improves".

To the extent success can be achieved in Iraq, it will be a political settlement achieved with the help of all Iraq's neighbors, including Iran, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Israel,... et al.

Why do Libs luv our enemies? Why was Joe McCarthy's list of 57 Commies dead nuts on? Why do Libs always side with our enemies?

I certainly would be more supportive of continued US military presense over there, if it were seen as somehow an interim step while political settlement were achieved, rather than a strategy unto itself.

Hmmmmm, That's one of the healthier things I can remember you saying. Maybe there is hope. Respectfully, JR

 

[OldMercsRule]

Re: Difficulty and HONOR; Expediency and DISHONOR

Another article, (from Harry Reid's home town rag).

http://www.lvrj.com/opinion/7139891.html

Democrat voters should ponder what type of Americans should allow or even incourage their kids to inlist in an all volantary military that fights to loose wars that the Democrats voted to execute n' then changed their minds due to MSM bad news driven polling so that our enemies advance and these types of Democrats who work closely with our enemies continue to gain more political power. This is what things look like when the sun is goin' down folks. Hope voters can shake off their appathy and think just a little. Not much thinkin' is even necessary to come to an honorable cornclusion. Modern Demcrats = DISHONOR!! JR

 

[cmyers_uk]

Re: Difficulty and HONOR; Expediency and DISHONOR

I think we owe it to the people of Iraq to stay until the country is stable. We rolled the dice now comes the hard part staying with it. Interestingly in the UK there is no huge will to bring the troups home probably because we are not losing lots of personel and the financial burden is no problem at this point.

I think we may have to realise that you cant make a people democratic overnight. It took us 300 years and maybe a dictator is whats required , just one who is allied to us! and not as brutal as the last one.

 

[ricksrster]

Re: Difficulty and HONOR; Expediency and DISHONOR

That is called aiding and abetting.

 

[Plainsman]

Re: Difficulty and HONOR; Expediency and DISHONOR

The libs will never understand what it means to stay and finish the mission. They'll never understand that the mission changes as progress is meet.
The libs like the "feel good now, worry later" attitude. Then when later comes and it's time to do something, they haven't a clue what to do or blame someone else (Republicans).
I wasn't very political until 9-11. I was fooled for many years as to what the demacrat party actually stood for. I have seen the truth for what they stand for and it sickens me. The libs are nothing but a bunch of whiners without a plan. And that seems to be their norm. Never a solution, just more cryin. I would be truley amazed if lil nancy or dingy harry actually had a plan, for anything that effects the country.
I have seen NO honor with the dems in charge of the congress. They have accomplished NOTHING in their first 100 hours as was promised by them. Nothing but hot air and wasting time on matters to make the present administration look bad.

 

[PW2]

Re: Difficulty and HONOR; Expediency and DISHONOR

Second, McCain's (and anyone else that sees a military surge as the path to success in Iraq) insistence of the military escalation as the answer is just plain mind boggling. It reminds a person of the old bumper sticker "The beatings will continue until morale improves".

Are you trying to say that if we give up and quit fighting the bad guys will also give up and quit fighting? If we are nice the bad bad guys will be nice too?

It's a *CIVIL WAR*! Sunnis are fighting Shiites. Both the Shiites and Sunnis are fighting us. That's what they are doing now, and that's what they will be doing for as long as we are there, and it is what they will be doing when we leave. And *We are going to leave* sooner or later, we simply have no choice. At 100 Americans dead a month, how many months do you propose to stay? Our military is stretched too thin now, how do you propose to get new recruits to volunteer?

I wish some of you would put some of that John Wayne bravado aside for a moment and look at this with a little common sense.

 

[Plainsman]

Re: Difficulty and HONOR; Expediency and DISHONOR

quote pw "I wish some of you would put some of that John Wayne bravado aside for a moment and look at this with a little common sense."/quote

So your option is, "Well boys we gave it our best, let's pack up and go home. Let these folks settle things and it'll all work out."
Talk about needing to use some common sense...my godness man..wake up and join reality!!
Or have some more

if it helps face the world we live in.

 

[waterinthefuel]

Re: Difficulty and HONOR; Expediency and DISHONOR

PW, I agree, it is a civil war, a very frustrating one, that these people are more interested in killing each other than living peacefully.

That being said, we didn't go into Iraq to make it stable, we went in to get rid of Saddam and the WMD's that Clinton, Algore, and Pelosi said he had. We did that, and now we are trying to make Iraq a place that terrorist sympathizers can't live, as they can use Iraq as a staging ground for attacks against the US and it's allies.

THAT is why we are in Iraq, and THAT is why we have to stay. The "democratic" Iraq is just the best idea we could come up with, I guess it won the popular vote opposed to "dictator" Iraq. They did that already and that didn't work so well.

 

[PW2]

Re: Difficulty and HONOR; Expediency and DISHONOR

PW, I agree, it is a civil war, a very frustrating one, that these people are more interested in killing each other than living peacefully.

That being said, we didn't go into Iraq to make it stable, we went in to get rid of Saddam and the WMD's that Clinton, Algore, and Pelosi said he had. We did that, and now we are trying to make Iraq a place that terrorist sympathizers can't live, as they can use Iraq as a staging ground for attacks against the US and it's allies.

THAT is why we are in Iraq, and THAT is why we have to stay. The "democratic" Iraq is just the best idea we could come up with, I guess it won the popular vote opposed to "dictator" Iraq. They did that already and that didn't work so well.

I don't disagree with you, WITF, but my question remains, how is the American military possibly going to accomplish this? It is going to take diplomacy with all of Iraq's neighbors, including, but not limited to, Iran and Syria, to come up with some framework that the neighbors can somehow coexist with. If the Shiites dominate, as Iran might prefer, it's not going to be accepted well with the Sunni states like Saudi and Jordan and Egypt. We need to somehow avoid a regional conflict and bloodbath. It won't be easy, no doubt, but what we are doing now has no chance of success. The sooner we recognize that, the better off everyone will be.

 

[Coors]

Re: Difficulty and HONOR; Expediency and DISHONOR

So we just quit? as the dems voted to do?