The grey area when your boat gets stolen !!!

[Cptkid570]

Re: The grey area when your boat gets stolen !!!

Just read this thread. Good luck with all of this. I'm thinking that it's not a matter of Progressive dragging their feet, it's more of a matter of Progressive having to go through the proper channels before they pay a claim this large out.

The adjuster who you are dealing with probably doesn't have authority to settle a claim this big, so he has to take it to his supervisor, who may even have to take it to his supervisor.. .and the more it rolls uphill at Progressive, the more each person says "ask him for this, ask him for that"... then they have their fraud department involved in it (which is probably a standard procedure for a theft this large) saying "get this from him, get that from him"... so they are so hung up on getting all of the little stuff, that they are losing the big picture (how much time is going by).

I'd imagine that a claim this large typically does take this long to resolved. It's not like you are dealing with a smaller item like a stolen jetski.

Be patient, they seem like they are just trying to do their job.. and you don't know what kind of boss this adjuster has.. maybe that is the tightwad. I'd imagine that your adjuster is way ready to have this claim overwith.

I suggest be nice to the Progressive people, provide them anything you want. If they want to meet in person or have their fraud guy meet with you in person, invite them over.. tell them that you can try to get the investigating police officer at the meeting too.

 

[bigfish17]

Re: The grey area when your boat gets stolen !!!

Thanks for all the responses guys...

I was reading up today on the net about "reservation of rights" letter from insurance companies and what it means.

It was a bit complex, but what I got out of it is that I shouldn't give them priviliged information but I didn't understand the legal ramifications as to why not.

If somebody here knows what that letter means to me the "insured" let me know. I have a call out to the attorney as well...

This is my only biggest doubt...should I give them all my information or not. I just don't want this to come back to haunt me later as I don't know which route they're going to take on this...

 

[Nandy]

Re: The grey area when your boat gets stolen !!!

I would comply with everything they ask for and then once they pay you I would "drop them like its hot".

 

[freddyray21]

Re: The grey area when your boat gets stolen !!!

I would comply with everything they ask for and then once they pay you I would "drop them like its hot".

I would give them nothing and go with your attorneys advice. He won't have to drop them. they will drop him.

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: The grey area when your boat gets stolen !!!

I would say that you should cooperate where the information demanded is reasonable. That's why I am advocating seting up a meeting at your attorney's office.

The position that they are taking, is that they need to assure themselves that there is nothing irregular about your finances. Fine, let them see that, but do it in a way that you remain in control. You can let them see the information in your attorney's office. In this way you also limit how far they can draw the process out. Your attorney will let them sit in his conference room for a set period of time and he will go back to work, while they are examining the records. His staff can make sure they are not taking photos of the documents with camera phones, etc.

Why be such a hard nose? Because Progressive apparently has a rep for drawing out and denying claims. This way, you control what happens without being uncooperative. If it weren't for a need for you to appear to be reasonable, I would tell them to shove off, but that probably wouldn't be smart. It would also create more back and forth and that will cost you money. So, be reasonable to a point, but if they don't act reasonably in kind, file the suit. Do the suit on contingency with provision for damages, attorney's fees and court costs. I am recommending this because your attorney's willingness to gamble, which he/she is if it is done on contingency, will tell you whether or not you have a case.

I don't blame an insurance company for feeling that it needs to protect its own interests. What I do think is fishy is that they have no reason to believe that you have been dishonest. Its not like the cops think you are not on the up and up and are telling them this. Unfortunately, many people do scam insurers, but many insurers scam their own customers by not paying them. Sometimes you just have to fight back.

 

[bigfish17]

Re: The grey area when your boat gets stolen !!!

I would say that you should cooperate where the information demanded is reasonable. That's why I am advocating seting up a meeting at your attorney's office.

The position that they are taking, is that they need to assure themselves that there is nothing irregular about your finances. Fine, let them see that, but do it in a way that you remain in control. You can let them see the information in your attorney's office. In this way you also limit how far they can draw the process out. Your attorney will let them sit in his conference room for a set period of time and he will go back to work, while they are examining the records. His staff can make sure they are not taking photos of the documents with camera phones, etc.

Why be such a hard nose? Because Progressive apparently has a rep for drawing out and denying claims. This way, you control what happens without being uncooperative. If it weren't for a need for you to appear to be reasonable, I would tell them to shove off, but that probably wouldn't be smart. It would also create more back and forth and that will cost you money. So, be reasonable to a point, but if they don't act reasonably in kind, file the suit. Do the suit on contingency with provision for damages, attorney's fees and court costs. I am recommending this because your attorney's willingness to gamble, which he/she is if it is done on contingency, will tell you whether or not you have a case.

I don't blame an insurance company for feeling that it needs to protect its own interests. What I do think is fishy is that they have no reason to believe that you have been dishonest. Its not like the cops think you are not on the up and up and are telling them this. Unfortunately, many people do scam insurers, but many insurers scam their own customers by not paying them. Sometimes you just have to fight back.

Thanks Jay...

That sounds like a plan. I'm going to suggest that to the atorney and see what he thinks. Also, I wonder if Progressive will agree to that.

I still have a problem with their way of thinking. Which is that if you're not in a great financial situation, then you must be guilty. So all of us who are just geting by are not honest human beings ?

I don't know...I just have a problem with them going in that direction because sure as hell they have nothing else to prove their case...

 

[aspeck]

Re: The grey area when your boat gets stolen !!!

I was explaining this to a friend of mine today and he told me that he got his boat stolen in April of 2001. It was stolen while it was at his boat dealer's lot getting work done on it. His insurer was the same as the dealers, but the insurance company (it was NOT Progressive) thought it was in inside job. He did not get paid for the boat until the end of September that year ... almost 6 months from stolen to payout.

Bigfish, hang in there ... we're rooting for you!

 

[TilliamWe]

Re: The grey area when your boat gets stolen !!!

It doesn't seem that Progressive has much reason to suspect bigfish, except that it's boat theft central where he lives and it was taken from his own driveway, while he was home.
That said, don't put any stock in the police not investigating him. Most police departments lose all interest and motivation to investigate stolen cars,boat, whatever... as soon as they find out it was insured. "Let the Insurance company investigate it. It's not our problem." is their attitude 9 times out of 10. I speak from 10 years of experience in the insurance claims business. It took me two telephone calls to find out a guy had his car stolen and burned, but the police didn't even make 1 call. Oh that guy was also convicted of Insurance Fraud due to our investigation, that took 4 total phone calls, and 2 recorded statements.
So, while this may not be the case here, people do steal their own stuff, and the police do LITTLE to investigate it.

 

[Nandy]

Re: The grey area when your boat gets stolen !!!

I would give them nothing and go with your attorneys advice. He won't have to drop them. they will drop him.

Well, if the boat is total and he is not using progressive for anything else I guess the point of dropping progressive is merely academically.

They already told him that since he is not complying the process has stalled. Sure he can drag this with his attorney (that gets paid more the longer the process) and what good is it going to do? Its been almost a MONTH and the LAWYER has NOT done anything that has had ANY EFFECT in expediting the claim. They are still asking for information, they are still not paying you, actually, by your own words, they are even acting like you dont have a lawyer. They are taking the same time to return calls to him as they did to you, right?

As far as looking as studying your finances the person or team that does that might not be local so they will need copies anyway, even if the person is local he probably has to use progresive system or computers to document what he is seeing so I doubt much they will comply. You will get this delayed more. Time is in their hands and you are just making it easier for them to delay and deny a claim as you are not cooperating with what they ask.

My impression is that the first attorney that you talked to was looking after your interest better. He told you that if you dont have anything to hide then give them what they want. Did that attorney charge you anything? Im just curious... You should have waited to see if they declined your claim or would not give you what you believe was right before getting an attorney...

Sure, you can go an fight the "big bad insurance company" as many here ask you. Tell them "screw you, im giving you nothing I dont think you need." By all accounts here but mine (maybe I was too nice to the guy) progresive is in the habit of dragging their feet (or maybe it is that they do a thorough investigation) in all claims, not just yours. So now you go and dont cooperate with them stalling an already slow system... Hmmmm... They are not going to settle until they have all they need per their procedures. In the mean time, you are the one still making the payments on a boat you dont have anymore. You are the one not getting the money that is yours... Im my opinion (we all have one) you not complying is a big factor on why your claim is been delayed.

Like you said, the value of the boat is set in stone in your contract. If you have nothing to hide give them all the paperwork and take away from them any reason to delay or decline payment of your policy. If they were to decline your claim then it would be time for a lawyer...

You want to get paid quick, work with them...
You want to teach Progressive a lesson that they cant squeeze the little guy or being abusive, only offer to give them what you think they need and in your terms (sounds familiar?) regardless on how much will that delay your claim or risk it being deny...

In your first post you expressed how traumatized was your significant other with the theft. I wonder how she feel about fighting the insurance company and all this lawyer hoopla... I hope this does not ruin boating for you too....

Do what is best for YOU...

 

[bigfish17]

Re: The grey area when your boat gets stolen !!!

Well, if the boat is total and he is not using progressive for anything else I guess the point of dropping progressive is merely academically.

They already told him that since he is not complying the process has stalled. Sure he can drag this with his attorney (that gets paid more the longer the process) and what good is it going to do? Its been almost a MONTH and the LAWYER has NOT done anything that has had ANY EFFECT in expediting the claim. They are still asking for information, they are still not paying you, actually, by your own words, they are even acting like you dont have a lawyer. They are taking the same time to return calls to him as they did to you, right?

As far as looking as studying your finances the person or team that does that might not be local so they will need copies anyway, even if the person is local he probably has to use progresive system or computers to document what he is seeing so I doubt much they will comply. You will get this delayed more. Time is in their hands and you are just making it easier for them to delay and deny a claim as you are not cooperating with what they ask.

My impression is that the first attorney that you talked to was looking after your interest better. He told you that if you dont have anything to hide then give them what they want. Did that attorney charge you anything? Im just curious... You should have waited to see if they declined your claim or would not give you what you believe was right before getting an attorney...

Sure, you can go an fight the "big bad insurance company" as many here ask you. Tell them "screw you, im giving you nothing I dont think you need." By all accounts here but mine (maybe I was too nice to the guy) progresive is in the habit of dragging their feet (or maybe it is that they do a thorough investigation) in all claims, not just yours. So now you go and dont cooperate with them stalling an already slow system... Hmmmm... They are not going to settle until they have all they need per their procedures. In the mean time, you are the one still making the payments on a boat you dont have anymore. You are the one not getting the money that is yours... Im my opinion (we all have one) you not complying is a big factor on why your claim is been delayed.

Like you said, the value of the boat is set in stone in your contract. If you have nothing to hide give them all the paperwork and take away from them any reason to delay or decline payment of your policy. If they were to decline your claim then it would be time for a lawyer...

You want to get paid quick, work with them...
You want to teach Progressive a lesson that they cant squeeze the little guy or being abusive, only offer to give them what you think they need and in your terms (sounds familiar?) regardless on how much will that delay your claim or risk it being deny...

In your first post you expressed how traumatized was your significant other with the theft. I wonder how she feel about fighting the insurance company and all this lawyer hoopla... I hope this does not ruin boating for you too....

Do what is best for YOU...

I don't disagree with anything you said...

It's been a conflicting battle for me because I'm getting so many different sides to this story from friends, lawyers, people on this forum etc.

One person says one thing and somebody says the opposite, even the lawyers give me opposing opinions as to how to deal with it. And when they explain why, it always make sense both ways.

I don't really feel comfortable one way or the other. I'll take this weekend and consult the lawyer on Monday and see what he says. I want to comply with whatever they ask and get this nightmare over with and I'll probably do that unless he strongly opposes to otherwise...

 

[Nandy]

Re: The grey area when your boat gets stolen !!!

My thing is, why not give them the papers? This is an established company. They are not going to made your information public, they are not going to try to steal your information. Do I think they are being excessive? Yes, a bit... But if there was not a red flag raised back when they asked you for the information to begging with, Im sure there is a big red flag in your paperwork once you have decline to give the information they requested.
You sound like a reasonable person. I wish you good luck.

 

[Nandy]

Re: The grey area when your boat gets stolen !!!

I want to comply with whatever they ask and get this nightmare over with and I'll probably do that unless he strongly opposes to otherwise...

If he oppose ask him why and expect a good reason like.... I really cant see any good reason NOT to comply so I can give you an example... Make sure is a reason that if you comply is going to cause you some type of harm economically or socially. A "they dont need it" answer is not good enough. It is in their procedure (apparently) so they need it. If they think they need whatever information in order to be satisfied it all check ok and you dont provide it they will eventually just deny the claim and then you will really need a lawyer, plus more than likely they will be able to get it by court. Im sure this is not the first complaint that progressive handles...

 

[bigfish17]

Re: The grey area when your boat gets stolen !!!

If he oppose ask him why and expect a good reason like.... I really cant see any good reason NOT to comply so I can give you an example... Make sure is a reason that if you comply is going to cause you some type of harm economically or socially. A "they dont need it" answer is not good enough. It is in their procedure (apparently) so they need it. If they think they need whatever information in order to be satisfied it all check ok and you dont provide it they will eventually just deny the claim and then you will really need a lawyer, plus more than likely they will be able to get it by court. Im sure this is not the first complaint that progressive handles...

It's not that I worry about my pesonal info or them sharing that with other parties. It has to do with how they can use that info against me in the event that they choose to deny the claim for whatever reason...

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: The grey area when your boat gets stolen !!!

Thanks Jay...

I still have a problem with their way of thinking. Which is that if you're not in a great financial situation, then you must be guilty. So all of us who are just geting by are not honest human beings ?

Its not just that they are looking for financial problems. They are also looking for spikes in your finances - as in, you just ended up with a bunch of money from an unknown source, or your spending habits all of a suddened spiked.

I think that your plan to consult with the attorney is a good one. That said, I don't disagree with Nandy that there is a point at which the legal bills can become more than they are worth. Its hard to decide just how far to go. That is one good reason to begin to transition the legal assistance from a fee for service basis, to a contingency lawsuit. If the lawyer really believes that Progressive is being reasonable and has a right to demand what they are asking for, he won't touch a contingency suit, and you'll find out very quickly whether or not he is just trying to run a bill up on you.

As for Progressive needing actual copies because they don't have someone local, I would doubt that - Progressive has adjusters all over the place. Who among us has not seen their Ford Explorers time and time again. They also have offices all over the place, and it shouldn't be a big deal for the most senior manager in your region to come visit to examine documents.

Another alternative might be to provide Progressive with copies of your bills. Each page can be stamped "do not copy" and your lawyer can have them sign a confidentiality agreement and a limitation of use. Basically, make them agree to use the documents only to evaluate this specific claim, and make them agree not to make any copies. You can also make them agree to return the copies given to you in some period of time. This method is less secure, but if you ever catch them misusing the information after they have entered a legal agreement not to, they're on the hook to you.

My view of this isn't really that providing the financial data is all that big of a deal. What I would object to is the cell phone records. Who you call and associate with is your business. This is exactly why even law enforcement can not demand these records without a supoena. You also don't need some investigator bugging and looking into everyone that you know. Think about this .... they end up with a list of phone numbers. By themselves, those numbers mean nothing, so they begin to do reverse lookups on every single one of them, including the unlisted and cell phone numbers, which they can track because they use commercial lookup services. So, they end up with a bunch of names and addresses - what do they have even then. Essentially nothing unless they start to do some investigating. Do you really want all of your friends, acquaintences and business contacts being called by some insurance company, or investigated themselves?

Another thing that comes to my mind, is the issue of equity in the boat. If you are majorly upside down in it (meaning that you owe a lot more than it is worth), they could view a setup theft as a good way to get out of boat payments. On the other hand, if you have sufficient equity in the boat, as balanced againt book value, why would you have it stolen? It wouldn't make sense to pay someone to do that and risk going to jail over something that you could just sell, if you felt that you didn't want to make the payments any more. My point here is that Progressive should be willing to give you some reason why they feel they need to investiigate. It sounds to me like they have no reason other than the fact that they always try to get out of a claim.

On timing ... so far Progressive has not settled your claim. Does that mean your lawyer has not helped you? No at all. It is quite likely that you would have been given no explanation what-so-ever, without him. Its also possible that you could end up in a major legal fight later on. Like I said, its hard to know.

 

[ToothDocNick]

Re: The grey area when your boat gets stolen !!!

I would have to agree with Jay on this one. The lawyer was not there to cause problems, but look out for the best interest of the insured. When large companies, especially one who owes you $99K, throw legal documents at you and expect you to give them aynthing and everything I feel it is in the insured's best interest to have someone who can say good idea or bad idea. Otherwise, he would have been run over long ago. I have discussed this situation with two other insurance agencies and all of them have said "get a lawyer" he is being yanked around. Usually you could get your agent to play middle man for your benefit, but that is not the case with Progressive.

Is there a clasue in your contract that says how quickly they have to pay to make it right?

 

[TilliamWe]

Re: The grey area when your boat gets stolen !!!

Is there a clasue in your contract that says how quickly they have to pay to make it right?

That is usually not specified. But when they have to pay after the price is agreed is:

Look under a section called "Conditions". My policy (not Progressive) says this:
"We will adjust all losses with you. We will pay you unless some other person is named in the policy to receive payment. Payment for loss will be made within 30 days after we reach agreement with you, entry of a final judgement, or the filing of an appraisal award with us."

So my insurance carrier actually has an additional 30 days to pay, after the claim is settled. Wouldn't be surprised if Progressive policy reads similiarly.

 

[bigfish17]

Re: The grey area when your boat gets stolen !!!

Is there a clasue in your contract that says how quickly they have to pay to make it right?

I don't know so I would have to check...

I was wondering that myself not too long ago...

 

[bigfish17]

Re: The grey area when your boat gets stolen !!!

Another thing is...

They have never mailed me the repair estimate even though I've asked several times on the phone and thru my lawyer's letter. Why am I being asked to comply with everything but "they" haven't given me one thing I asked in all this time. We're going on 8+ weeks now...

 

[TilliamWe]

Re: The grey area when your boat gets stolen !!!

If the repair estimate is from the repair shop, get it from them. If it's a damage assessment from Progressive, then yes, they should provide a copy for you. But if the boat is totalled, what does the estimate matter?

 

[bigfish17]

Re: The grey area when your boat gets stolen !!!

If the repair estimate is from the repair shop, get it from them. If it's a damage assessment from Progressive, then yes, they should provide a copy for you. But if the boat is totalled, what does the estimate matter?

Normally it wouldn't matter had they told me it was a total loss. To this day they haven't confirmed in writing or otherwise. I just assume it is because their estimate guy who went to the dealer said it "should be" total and they would contact me within 48 hrs.

Well...48 hrs went by, and a week went by and 2 and 3 weeks went by and they never contacted me or told me officially that it would be total. This is all my assumption because of how they're acting and what they're asking. I figure at this point they're not going to repair it. It's still sitting at the dealer and they don't know what's going on either.

But it would've been nice of them to tell me what's going on and kept me informed...but I suppose that's too much to ask of them...