Turn key - motor cranks, remove key, motor still cranks!

[eulissrj]

Hey guys, yesterday I sent my teenage son out to start my boat (something I do to keep it running over the winter and ready to go in the spring). I was on the phone with the parts dept. for another issue on another money pit. This is a 40 hp Yamaha F40 4 cycle outboard (carburetors) with power tilt and 703 remote control panel at the console. Long story short he tried to start it in the tilt position, something it will not do but it will crank, and when I got there the starter motor was whirring away not making connection with the gear that runs the stator and the key was in his hand! This had apparently gone on for a few minutes and in all fairness he was trying to tell me while I was on the phone explaining something to the parts guy. I tried the kill switch but no luck and not being sure how else to get the motor to shut off I went for the negative terminal of the battery and removed the cable. So to be clear, the boat would not stop attempting to crank even when the ignition was off and key removed, as well as the kill switch. Any ideas where to start (703 remote?) and what damage may have been done?

Thanks for any help.

 

[GA_Boater]

Welcome to iboats, eulissrj.

Just some generic stuff. The kill switch usually will only shut the motor off when running or not allow it to start, but it will turn over. This might isolate the remote control - Hook the battery back up and if if the starter spins with the key out, shift into gear. If it stops spinning, most likely the the key switch is bad.
if it keeps spinning, the solenoid is most likely to be bad. As far as why the starter didn't engage. maybe you have a sticky bendix.

Are you actually starting the motor or just turning over? Are you hooking up muffs if you're starting the motor?

 

[eulissrj]

Thanks GA_Boater I will try that as soon as I can.

I used to fog the motor during the winter but because this was my first boat I had to make a few mistakes. First, and long term, was being lazy and using ethanol treated fuel. Learned my lesson but still paying the price with somewhat corroded carb float bowls (so the mechanic tells me) and thought I'd just come out on a weekly basis and start and run the motor for a few minutes. That way I figure I can flush the non-ethanol treated gas through and keep everything running for spring. Yes, I run water through it while it is running.

 

[GA_Boater]

I was concerned that you could be starting without water because that will destroy the impeller. Hope one of the things I mentioned help isolate the problem or some of the Yammy guys pop in.

 

[Silvertip]

If you know how to use a voltmeter it is very simple to isolate the key switch from the solenoid. Connect the POS voltmeter lead to the small (ignition switch) terminal on the solenoid and the NEG (black) lead to the engine block. Now touch the battery cable to the battery terminal. If the meter shows 12 volts, the ignition switch is suspect. Even though it is turned off, the internal contacts may still be connecting +12 volts to the "S" (start) terminal. If the starter still attempts to run but the small terminal does NOT show 12 volts, you have a stuck starter solenoid. When you repair that, then check and clean the bendix on the starter. It should turn in one direction and lock in the other. It should also move freely up and down the shaft.

 

[WrenchHead]

Same thing happened to me. I also had to disconnect the battery. Problem was a bad battery which was 5 years old. New battery fixed the issue and there was no damage to ignition, solenoid, or starter.

 

[eulissrj]

Thanks for the suggestions. Just tested it tonight. With the negative terminal disconnected, as it has been since Tuesday, I had my son put the key and make sure it was off and in neutral position. I told him to move the throttle forward if it started cranking on its own again. I touched the negative terminal to the post...nothing. Tuesday this would have caused it to start cranking. Then, with the battery connected, I had my son turn the key...it fired right up. As soon as we shut it off, however, it is back to cranking without the key and with the negative connected. So do you think it's the solenoid or battery?

 

[GA_Boater]

While it was cranking after the key was turned off, did you try moving the control out of neutral?

 

[99yam40]

I do not see how a battery could cause this.

You need to check if solenoid is getting a signal from key switch/ wiring to energize with the key not in start position while this is happening.

 

[eulissrj]

GA_Boater, yes, just as you suggested, when we touched the cable to the battery and it started to crank on its own, my son moved the throttle forward and no change. It continued to crank. The only difference last night was that it did not start to crank as soon as I connected the battery like it did on Tuesday. Last night it only cranked up when we turned the key, just like it's supposed to. BUT, then we shut it off with the key and removed the negative cable from the battery. When I touched the cable to the terminal this time, with the key in the off position, it started cranking on its own again. Am I making sense?

 

[GA_Boater]

It sounds like the solenoid is sticking. If you have a meter, do the check Silvertip wrote about in post #5. If no meter, you can try tapping the solenoid when the starter is spinning with the key off.

The reason I'm zeroing in on the solenoid is because when the control is not in neutral, the Neutral Start switch is open which breaks the path of 12V from the key switch to the solenoid. Hence the sticky solenoid thought.

 

[eulissrj]

I'll get the meter out and see what I've got. I have a short road trip tomorrow but will try and get at it in the afternoon. Thanks for the suggestions!

 

[eulissrj]

This evening I started out to do what Silvertip suggested, using the voltmeter. Now I'm going to show my knowledge of boat motors. My manual shows no solenoid but it does show a starter relay and based on its connection to the starter motor, that may be it. Or, is the solenoid inside the starter motor housing? Anyway, I replaced the starter relay last year with a non-Yamaha part. My mechanic said it should work and it did, at least for a while.

So anyway, knowing that it would probably act normal on the first crank I decided to at least accomplish what I intended to do all along which was to run the motor for a short time each week it was trailered, as I did the last winter vs. fogging. So I hooked up the neg. cable and started the motor. It cranked right up and was purring away. The starter gear retracted back down into its housing but also continued spinning. Should it continue to run? Seems like it would stop once the motor turned over. And the starter housing gets really hot.

 

[GA_Boater]

The starter should stop when the key is out of the start position. Do you have the model and serial number. Now I'm out of the generic stuff. I did look at some Yamaha 40 4 stroke parts and it seems the solenoid is separate. Does you solenoid/starter relay look something like this? Hope the pic shows.

You should be able to disconnect the bullet connector and if the solenoid is OK, the starter should stop spinning.

 

[eulissrj]

I will take a photo and upload. My starter relay has four connections but is similar in size. I really appreciate your time.

 

[eulissrj]

If by model and serial number you mean for the motor, here's what's on my manual: Yamaha F40TLR, Ser. No. 67C L1021817.

 

[eulissrj]

Motor: Yamaha F40TLR. Serial #67C L1021817. I'm uploading a photo of my starter relay.

 

[GA_Boater]

That looks like same solenoid like the pic I posted earlier. Next time the starter keeps turning after the key is turned off, disconnect the bullet connector if you have one on your solenoid. Or disconnect the ground wire to the solenoid. Which ever is easier.

 

[eulissrj]

Just to put this to bed. I had another emergency come up during this time and then the Holidays. Sorry for the delay. The problem was the starter relay (see photo above). Replaced that and all is good. Thanks everyone for the help and Happy New Year!

 

[GA_Boater]

Thanks for the follow up. Hope all is well with you. Happy New Year.