Need 2008 VP 5.7 HELP!!!! PLEASE

[Regal1973]

First I'd like to apologize but this is going to be like a reading a book LOL ! But please read through it thank you.
I posted back in 2018 about

a cabin cruiser my family and I purchased with a 5.7 L Volvo Penta GI G motor. It was a new to us 2008 year boat purchase and after sea trial is when I started having idle and running issues. Many of you guys assisted me in trouble shooting and it was discovered that it was taking in water into motor!
Fast forward, I ordered a brand new Factory Volvo Penta motor from a reputable company in Michigan. I had it shipped to the Tampa Bay area where I had the motor installed by a Volvo Penta certified shop. Since the day I picked it up I've had nothing but issues
It has had a idling issue since the day we took it home. It idles up and down about 100-200 rpms. It appears to be temperature related and when the temperature drops below 160, it runs perfectly smooth. When the temperature is above 160, it starts idling up and down approximately 100 to 200 RPM.
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the Volvo Penta shop who installed the motor assisted in trying to address the issue and after jerking around, off and on for about a year, they were unable to figure it out. They hooked up a laptop and according to them, everything seemed to be within spec. Thinking it could be a problem prior to them performing computer diagnostics, they installed a new crank trigger which did not fix the issue. They have washed their hands of the idle issue and said there is nothing else that they can do for me!!!!! GRRRRRRR! which left me mad as h*ll!
Over the last 6-8 months Ive been working with the marine motor company in Michigan who I purchase the new long block (not rebuilt) VP motor from. They have been very helpful in trying to diagnose over the phone this issue. I even rented a diagnostic tool from them and went over the different operating parameters of the motor and it appeared as though everything was okay. Their last suggestion was to see if the motor is sucking air so they suggested I install clear hose on the suction side of the raw water pump. Just to eliminate any concerns, I installed a brand new raw water pump as well. After connecting the clear hose to the suction side of the raw water pump, I was sucking a ton of air into the motor on the garden hose. Hoping this was the issue to my idle problem, I traced the hoses all the way back to the transom. Outside of the transom I removed the hose off the outdrive and connected it to my garden hose. Running water with the garden hose connected to the hose which is connected to the outside of the transom, I had no air going through the motor, THUMBS UP, so I'm guessing the air issue is somewhere along the outdrive......
even with eliminating the air in the motor, unfortunately my idle issue was still there THUMBS DOWN.
I then connected the garden hose to the muffs on the outdrive and attempted to force water up through the drive and out the back of the drive which was a no-go! I could not get water on the garden hose to flow up and out the drive. I reversed the hoses and connected my garden hose to the back side of the drive and water flowed out freely down through and out the lowerr water pickups where the muffs attach. I'm confused on why I can't force water up through the lower pickups & out the outdrive hose which normally connects to the transom.
when I reverse the water flow, forcing it through the transom hose, it flows freely down through the lower pickups. Is this normal? When everything is connected back as it should, water is flowing to raw water pump and I know it is because I still have the clear hose connected to raw water inlet side & warm water is exiting the drive.
as for the idle issue, I have no clue what is going on.
I installed a brand new 250 degree thermostat. When the temperature is above 160, it idles rough. As soon as it drops below 160 it idles perfectly smooth. This happens like clockwork. If anyone has any ideas, for the idle issue or the outdrive flow as I explained, please throw them at me. This idle issue has been ongoing for a year-and-a-half now and the shop has wash their hands clean of it because they cannot figure it out either.
Thank you for any help!

 

[Regal1973]

The outdrive is a DPS-A

 

[QBhoy]

250o thermostat sounds a little dangerous.
Is it a gm 350 based engine I presume ?
presumably the IAC was the first thing checked ? Intake manifold check for taking in air too. Spray wd40 around it’s sealing surfaces and see if the engine revs a little. This would suggest its sucking air where it shouldn’t.

 

[Regal1973]

QBhoy, yes it's a gm based motor. Volvo calls for a 150* thermostat and that's what was originally in it. I decided to install a new one just to rule out any thermostat issues.
the IAC was replaced as well. The IAC plunger is moving rapidly but according to everyone, the parameters it was operating in was ok.
I did spray all around the intake & nothing has changed. I sprayed every sensor, intake, around the heads the best I could, the injectors etc and no change in motor tone.
The VP shop who installed the new motor, after trying many things eventually decided that I needed to ship off the computer to some company in California
The VP shop said they think the air/fuel burn rate is wrong because I have a different motor aka new motor installed. I told them it was a new factory motor but that didnt seem to faze them......
I then spoke with the Michigan company I purchased the motor from and they assured me that the motor I purchased was a brand new VP long block (not a bored out rebuild) and it has the exact same specs / internal parts as the motor that was taken out of the boat, & that that there would be no reason to reprogram the computer.

 

[QBhoy]

QBhoy, yes it's a gm based motor. Volvo calls for a 150* thermostat and that's what was originally in it. I decided to install a new one just to rule out any thermostat issues.
the IAC was replaced as well. The IAC plunger is moving rapidly but according to everyone, the parameters it was operating in was ok.
I did spray all around the intake & nothing has changed. I sprayed every sensor, intake, around the heads the best I could, the injectors etc and no change in motor tone.
The VP shop who installed the new motor, after trying many things eventually decided that I needed to ship off the computer to some company in California
The VP shop said they think the air/fuel burn rate is wrong because I have a different motor aka new motor installed. I told them it was a new factory motor but that didnt seem to faze them......
I then spoke with the Michigan company I purchased the motor from and they assured me that the motor I purchased was a brand new VP long block (not a bored out rebuild) and it has the exact same specs / internal parts as the motor that was taken out of the boat, & that that there would be no reason to reprogram the computer.

Wonder if it’s a mix up between a gxi and a gi ecu ?
is it multi point injection or tbi? If it’s a multi point have you changed out the usual issue with these ? The crap cap diz cap ?

 

[Regal1973]

QBhoy it's a throttle body motor with fuel rails and 8 injectors. I replaced the flat cap and rotor, IAC, the TPS is orig but tested good with diagnostic tool, the MAP sensor is orginal and shuts motor down when unplugged so I assume its operating correctly. New crank trigger sensor, both fuel pumps, high and low pressure within specs at idle and under load, injectors all sent out for cleaning and flowed by 3rd party automotive shop.....
The ECU is the same one that was on the original motor which was a 5.7GI-G motor.

 

[Regal1973]

It only has lopping idle when in neutral over 160*, both when it's on the trailer or when in the water.
I have no idea which way to go with the idle issue.

And I dont understand the outdrive water flow. Disconnect the hose from back of drive, hook up muffs and no water comes out back side of drive.
Put hose on back side of drive and water flows freely through the drive, exiting the low water pickup grates on each side of lower unit. Why can't I get water to flow from muffs up and out the back of the drive?

 

[Scott Danforth]

have a competent shop plug in and read the engine parameters and scrutinize the IAC and temp.

use an IR temp to check actual engine temps

the difference in idle is from the engine coming off of closed-loop to open loop and its compensating for something. need to see what the ECM is seeing to find out what its compensating for.

 

[alldodge]

Sounds like its a temp sensor problem. Soon as motor comes to operating temp it starts running rough. When the motor is cold it gets more fuel, when warm fuel is leaned out.

It only has lopping idle when in neutral over 160*, both when it's on the trailer or when in the water.

So if its in gear the lopping stops?

Hey muc

 

[BRICH1260]

Do you not have the "blue cap" flush port on the motor? I think you should. Use it to supply your water, not the muffs on the outdrive. I have a similar engine, an `08 GXI that I purchased from Michiganmotorz. Mine has worked flawless so far.

 

[Cobe Marine]

QBhoy it's a throttle body motor with fuel rails and 8 injectors. I replaced the flat cap and rotor, IAC, the TPS is orig but tested good with diagnostic tool, the MAP sensor is orginal and shuts motor down when unplugged so I assume its operating correctly. New crank trigger sensor, both fuel pumps, high and low pressure within specs at idle and under load, injectors all sent out for cleaning and flowed by 3rd party automotive shop.....
The ECU is the same one that was on the original motor which was a 5.7GI-G motor.

Just as a FYI, you have a multi port injection, not throttle body injection (they only had 2 injectors IN the throttle body).
Sounds like you've covered most of what we'd expect to be causing your problem, but here's one more thought:
If you mentioned this I missed it, but there are exhaust temp senders in each riser. These things are NOTORIOUS for causing problems with the run module, but not causing it to store a trouble code. MOD EDIT - PLEASE READ THE PRO RULES

 

[Regal1973]

Scott Danforth, the local VP shop who installed the Michigan Motorz motor was said to be reputable.....It this point and from my own personal experience, I'd now have to disagree with the masses. Finding someone who wont take you to the bank and who really know their stuff is a major task all in its self.
I have video clips of the diagnostic tool data screen with real time parameters but can't seem to get them to load up here on this forum. I have an IR gun. Where should I be shooting to get true accurate temp readings? I'm guessing temps are all over the place depending on where you shoot for readings.

AllDodge, it seems like a open / closed loop temp issue to me as well. It never runs "rough", it just idles up and down 150-200rpm when over 160*. If I put the boat in gear, it runs smooth, especially when it's in the water. That prop resistance when running elevates the rpms just enough I guess to overcome the idle issue. Out on water, while just in gear, it idles along smooth, pull it out of gear and idling issue starts up immediately (as long as the motor temp is 160 or above).

Brich1260, I do have the blue cap water flush. I've done it both ways, on muffs and with flush. I know outboard guys with newer motors use the flush connection because the impeller are in the lower units and muffs sometimes cant keep up.

Cobe Marine, yes correct multi-port injection.....I had a brain dart at the time I typed and was confusing myself with the old gm tuneport injection automotive systems. Anyways, I didn't mention the exhaust sensors and this is something I hadn't thought of. Thank you for the part numbers! If I could find a reputable, extremely knowledgeable shop, I'd be willing to take it in. You would think that would be an easy thing to do in central FL. I've always considered myself as someone who can figure it out, but I'm now hitting a wall.

How about the outdrive issue? Anyone know how the DPS-A outdrive water passages work? I thought water just flows from lower unit, up a tube, to the exit fitting on the back of the drive. How can I put a hose on the fitting on the back of the drive, and get water to easily flow out of the lower unit water pickups, but if I try to force water by using muffs on lower unit, I cant get one single drop of water to come out the hose fitting on back of outdrive?
Maybe I'm not getting enough water flow and this is related to the idle issue? I'm grasping at straws but I dont know what else to do lol.

 

[Regal1973]

I spoke with the VP shop yesterday who installed the new motor. He said he spoke with a VP Engineer months back and the result of that conversation is why he suggested to me in having the ECM reflashed by some company out in California. He asked me yesterday if I ever sent the ECM off. I told him I didn't because Michigan Motorz said the new long block was the exact same specs as the original motor, therefore the ECM wouldn't know if it was the old orig or the new motor installed.
I asked the VP shop owner, "How can the company in California be able to flash the ECM and make the changes needed to fix the idle problem when they dont have the boat to test it in?" He said I just need to tell them what it's doing, and they can do what's needed to fix idle......seems fishy to me....and on top of that, the VP shop said he couldn't remember the name of the company in California & that he doesnt know anyone anywhere around who does this other than the unknown company in Cali.
Any thoughts on this?????

 

[alldodge]

He's probably talking about Bob at OBD Diagnositcs
http://mefiburn.com/mefiburn.asp

They can reflaash a MEFI 1 thru 5, but there is next to no one which can reflash a VP 555 other then VP. Also think the VP guy doesn't know and is grasping at straws. Before sending I would call and talk to Bob

Personally I don't see the need because as you said, the ECM was fine one previous motor, and now it doesn't work correctly, so unless it was damaged in the in the transfer then its probably something else

 

[Regal1973]

AllDodge, thanks for the information, I appreciate any and all advice I can get!
I dont think the ECM is the issue. If it were, I'm guessing it would have been discovered when the VP shop connected their laptop and when I hooked up the diagnostic tool I got from Michigan Motorz.

Any way to upload video clips without going through YouTube? Just wondering, if someone saw exactly what I'm dealing with, the diagnostic tool screen with "live data"; it might help with other suggestions on what I might be able to try.

 

[QBhoy]

I think alldodge is onto something. On my MPi merc...when the engine is cold, it runs a little flakey and rough. Very rich and lumpy.
if your temp sensor is faulty it will run rough, hunt a little and rich.
with your question about the muffs. VP drives and having your water pump engine driven, often means it’s a hard task for the engine to pull eater up from the drive on muffs. Only some types of muffs do the job and not always well. These things usually rely on sheer water head pressure like when the boat is in the water as normal.
Usually the answer is pulling the inlet hose off on the suction side of the pump and putting a hose down it otherwise it’s a hit or a miss. Wouldn’t worry too much about it.

 

[Regal1973]

QBhoy, I wish I could explain the idle issue better. It's not running ruff, its not stumbling, it just lops up & down, almost like a "slow speed" camshaft in motor. If it did this up and down a bit quicker, people would be asking what cam I put in it Haha. It sounds kinda neat lol but it's not right so I need to figure it out.
The temp sensor you're referring to, would that be the brass temp sensor in thermostat housing, ,or the exhaust manifold temp sensors?

 

[Regal1973]

QBhoy, wrote up this little photo comparison on the outdrive to give a clearer picture ( just in case people were confused on what I was explaining).

 

[muc]

The shop that did this job should have warned you this might happen.
Volvo Penta doesn't sell this engine "brand new" they sell a re-manufactured engine, because this exact engine isn't available anymore. Part of the reason their reman costs $2000 more than the engine you bought is because they know that problems like your experiencing can happen and had to make sure that the reman parts would be compatible with the ECM.
You have bought a "almost, kind of like, maybe really close" new engine. But you DID NOT buy a Volvo Penta engine.

You are now in a spot that Michigan Motorz can say -- it's not us, it must be the shop or Volvo.
The shop can say -- it's not us, it must be Michigan Motorz or Volvo.
Volvo can say --- you didn't buy the motor from us and we have no idea what Michigan Motorz is using.
And they all could be correct.

At this point we don't know who caused this issue, could be 1,2 or all 3 of them. But we can find out if you put in the time and money.

Posting the video clips you have might help, but I'm guessing they came from a techmate and that is a limited scan tool. If you can get the .rec files from the shop that installed the motor they might show something. More than likely you will need Rinda Diacom to make a full recording that might show whats causing this.

I hope the 250° thermostat is a typo?

There is NO "open loop/closed loop" on this engine.

The clear hose test is only a valid test when done in the water, floating with normal load in boat. It is a waste of time to do it on a hose and almost always sends you on a wild goose chase.

My suggestions.
All of this is covered in Volvo Penta workshop manual #7748163 "cooling systems". I recommend you get a copy.
Make sure the thermostat bypass passage in the thermostat housing is clear. (I think someone had a good write up on this, maybe Lou C ) and make sure you have the right thermostat installed properly --- o-ring must fit nicely in the groove.
Now put the clear hose in the correct place.
a. Procedure - Replace water hose between thermostat housing and the supply pump with clear plastic hose. Operate unit in test tank or boat in water at RPM at which overheat occurs.
NOTICE! If operating the unit in a test tank, run the motor in neutral. Some test tanks may not have sufficient water volume to allow running engine in gear without creating turbulence. This can be picked up by the water intake and misconstrued as evidence of a cooling problem.
b. Results and Conclusions - No bubbles in hose, air/ exhaust is not entering cooling water. Bubbles in hose, air/exhaust is entering cooling water.

Post your results of this test and the serial number of your old engine and I will try to help.

 

[Regal1973]

muc, this is the type of information I need! So thank you very much!
I just spoke with VP International prior to seeing your post. They said they could open a ticket & asked for the serial number to the ""new VP motor"".......well guess what, I dont have the new VP motor plate / tab on block. I spoke with Michigan Motorz and they said they dont have a serial number for the motor sold to me but that there is a number 880 on block....Well this number does me NO GOOD lol.

I'm seeing this viscous circle more clearly now. What you're speaking about appears to be EXACTLY what's going on...not a legit new Volvo Penta motor from Michigan Motorz, VP shop washing hands because they can, VP International saying you didnt buy from us.......what a mess!

My biggest concern is the idle issue over the outdrive / air concern, but I will end up addressing air concern as well.

Do you think the computer remapping may be the solution for the idle issue? If it's not truly a NEW VP motor, and the specs are even slightly off from a new VP motor, could the computer be attempting to compensate for this? The old motor is long gone, disposed of by VP shop when new motor arrived at their shop. I'll have to see if I have any documents with serial # from prior boat owner.

The motor doesnt overheat and yes the thermostat is a 150*. It will only install into thermostat housing one direction, the O-ring is properly seated in its groove and the passages all look clear of obstructions. While the boat is sitting on trailer on hose, the temps top out at approximately 170-175* ( that is if the temp gauge is accurate). The second the temp on gauge hits 159*, it idles Perfectly Smooth. Once it shows 160+, it instantly starts up and down idle of 100-200 rpms. I was using a Techmate Pro tool. I dont think my VP shop would have kept the clip from when they connected their laptop to diagnose.

The VP shop said they spoke with an engineer with VP who said the computer needs sent off go fix the issues. I left a message for Bob at Mefiburn.com to see if he does anything like this but no call back yet. I used a Techmate Pro tool to look into motor parameters and those are the video clips I have.
Why would Michigan Motorz charge me extra money for what they claimed was a brand new VP motor over the cost of remanufactured motors they offer? I made this decision to purchase it under the notion that it was brand new / untouched.....the reason was that I was trying to avoid exactly what I'm dealing with now. I feel like I was mislead on what I was actually purchasing...