1994 Four Winns Horizon 215 5.8L EFI OMC

[platinumedge]

I rented a Noid Light set from my local AutoZone and tested all 8 injector connectors. They all appear to be pulsing, as expected; none staying on continuously, none not coming on at all. So, this would seem to confirm that the ECM is functioning correctly. From the results of these tests, I would assume that several of the injectors are "stuck open."

Volvo did NOT employ the pintle system on my particular injectors; "instead, fuel is metered via four small holes in a metering plate on the injector tip." I can see these four small holes, but nothing beyond. Can anyone recommend a method for cleaning these injectors? The body appears to be constructed of a plastic material, so that eliminates certain types of cleaners. I would think that "pulsing" each injector (by introducing an electrical current), and then dipping the tip into a non-volatile cleaner may produce the result I need?? This particular method worked for bringing both fuel pumps "back to life." Ironically, that method may have also loosened the debris in the fuel pumps, and sent them downstream to the injectors!

Best regards to all for a safe and happy Halloween!

 

[froggy1150]

There are 2 types of injector. Hi z (14 ohm) and low z (2.5 or less ohm). Hi z take full current and can be operated directly from 12 v source. Low z either need resistors or pwm current control. If you have low z injectors and pulse them with a battery you will most likely burn them up. Hi z you can tap them. Just don't leave them on like a shower head. As far as cleaning them...... send them out or replace. There are places you can send them and they will run solvent thru them on a bench and clean and test. You could get a fuel pump and solvent and try but unless you have them flow tested you won't know if they are even and if they are not you will never figure it out and get it running right. To flow test you put injector in a beaker and open like 200 times at 30ms and measure. Then repeat for 7 more. Doesn't matter cycle count or time as long as you do the same on every injector with the same fuel pressure. To do this you need to be able to set these parameters with a computer on a bench

 

[platinumedge]

I will check voltage coming out of injector connector(s) to see. However, last night I did tap one of them with 12 volts, several times. Each time I heard a distinct click, so it sounds like I (fortunately!) have the Hi z.

I checked with a local OMC dealer and they told me the ECM module is still available, but the injectors are not. I was recommended a place called Race City Injector (racecityinjector.com). They charge $22.00 per injector to clean & flow test; not bad for $176.00.

Thanks for the input, froggy1150!

 

[froggy1150]

Reading voltage won't tell you. Put meter on resistance and read across the injector coil itself. That is the 2 contact Pins in the rectangle of the injector.when it's down low In the 2 ohm area it's almost just like a short and without current limiting of some kind it will melt the coil. I am not sure of the rules here about specific links but if you Google diy engine control management -extra- and look around you will happen across some good tuning info. It's like what is run in street race cars on a budget.

 

[alldodge]

The around 20 an injector is the going rate, I would just end them out. Find out if they will be testing to 6000 rpm.

 

[platinumedge]

I contacted that Race City company and sent my injectors out to them to be cleaned, inspected & flow tested, and have the filters and O-rings replaced. Their standard pulse rate testing is 5ms @ 5,000 RPM, which I told him would be fine.
On another front: I was able to "gravity-feed" some ATF into the hydraulic reservoir of the power trim/tilt mechanism and get the outdrive to fully tilt up and down!! Yay! I did end up using that small, clear aquarium air pump line that I mentioned before; it worked quite well.

I know we're in "Engines and Outdrives," but I have removed the dashboard in order to inspect everything and do some cleaning. It has (what used to be) a clear plastic lens over the instruments. That lens seems to have some sort of opaque coating, or deterioration. I can barely see the instruments, and I can't find anything that will "clean" that lens. I'm also unable to figure out how to remove it, i.e., it appears to be an integral part of the dash assembly. Am I faced with "breaking/tearing" that lens out, and fabricating a replacement? Or do I need to bring this to another forum?

Don't forget to gain that (much-needed) hour of sleep Saturday night. ;-) (Turn your clocks back an hour.)

 

[alldodge]

The lens question is probably best in the electronics forum, but its probably UV damage. You can try one of the head light lens cleaners but ask around for some other ideas

 

[Horigan]

One option it to apply a clear screen saver for an iPad or laptop. Cut the material to size, make sure the surface is super clean and dust free using a micro-cloth, then spray the surface and your hands with a 50/50 mixture of water and rubbing alcohol. Peel off the screen saver backing with your wet hands and carefully apply with center touching first. Lay down the screen saver from center out. Then you a rubber squeegee or spatula to press the excessive water and bubbles out, while holding it in place. Wait 24 hours and most of the fluid should dry. Any remaining bubbles will clear in a few days. I would recommend a matte finish for better clarity. If it's a big surface, you can use two pieces. If this fails all you've lost is the cost of the screen saver(s) and they peel right off.

 

[platinumedge]

AllDodge - good call! I had a headlight cleaner kit that I purchased a few years ago. It worked very well, even on the plastic lens.

Now I need to get my running lights working. The switch for the running lights is a 3-way switch. (Again, I realize this probably needs to go to the Electronics Forum, but I'm getting such great input from YOU GUYS!) Pushing it up should turn on the running lights (and the little red switch light behind the top of the switch), while pushing it down should turn on the anchor light and, again, the little red switch light behind the bottom of the switch. The downward switch (anchor) works fine. But nothing happens when I push the switch up, not even the switch light?? There are a lot of connectors to this particular switch, including a jumper. Just wondering if the switch is an easy/cheap solution? And where would one go to find that switch? Does it have to be "marine grade"? Or can I just buy one with the same connectors and voltage?

Enjoy your extra hour of sleep tonight! ;-)

 

[alldodge]

Switch doesn't have to be marine grade, but should be water resistance. There is 2 ways to wire it, one uses a diode and the other doesn't

 

[platinumedge]

Strangely, the engine is acting the same way with the freshly-cleaned injectors?! It seems quite odd to me that the Noid lights were showing that the injectors were being pulsed correctly. Now I've paid to have someone clean and validate the flow rate of each of my injectors - all to no avail. The engine fires fine, at first. I presume this to be due to the combustion chambers being empty of fuel. It even idles for a few seconds, but then I need to fully open the throttle to get it to run. And then it begins spewing through the outdrive.

If the injectors are being pulsed correctly, and the injectors have now been given a "clean bill of health" from a repudiated injector company, what's left?? Is it possible for the HP pump to be "overloading" the injectors, causing them to leak/bleed fuel into the combustion chambers? Or is it more likely that my interpretation of the Noid lights is off? Or (my guess) the ECM is providing incorrect signals to the injectors?

I'm thinking of taking the boat to a local Volvo/Penta mechanic and having them plug it into their diagnostic machine. Alternatively (and most definitely not my first choice), put it up for sale and let someone else deal with the headaches.

P.S. Got the NAV lights working.

 

[alldodge]

Noid lights were showing that the injectors were being pulsed correctly

If the injectors are being pulsed correctly, and the injectors have now been given a "clean bill of health" from a repudiated injector company, what's left?? Is it possible for the HP pump to be "overloading" the injectors, causing them to leak/bleed fuel into the combustion chambers?

IMO you still have injector problems. Your flooding, so either the injectors are being turned ON to long (ECM), or they are the issue (were not tested correctly)

 

[platinumedge]

Today I had the unique opportunity to speak with a marine technician that works on my vintage Volvo/Penta setup. I gave him an overview and he said that they cannot test the ECM outside of the boat; it must be installed. And he wasn't even sure if he had that version of software that would go back to the 1994 Ford EMI.

He said that he had seen where the fuel pressure regulator had become inefficient and was no longer keeping the fuel pressure at the right psi. He suggested (as some of you have) to get a pressure gauge and, with the engine running (I wish there was another way?!), test the pressure on the injector (high) side. If it's over limit (above 36-42 psi) THIS could be causing (some of) the injectors to remain open. If that's the case, AND I can obtain a replacement fuel pressure regulator, then I may be back in business. I can't seem to find this pressure regulator (part # 3854237 on the Evinrude site) on iBoats??

For testing I guess I could force the HP pump to remain on. There is a procedure, outlined in my manual, for grounding the fuel pump lead at the Self-Test connector. It even calls out which pin (#52) and where it's located on the connector.

 

[alldodge]

I can't seem to find this pressure regulator (part # 3854237 on the Evinrude site) on iBoats??

Searched on the part number and walmart came up but did not have it. There was some additional cross reference numbers for the part which did show up active parts. I used RA035027 NOS

"Fuel Pressure Regulator OMC/Volvo/PCM Ford 5.0L & 5.8L w/ EFI Pro # 98799 Cross Ref #: 987995 RA035027, 18-7650, 3854237, 9-33203"

Before replacing reg I would make sure the pressure is off

have an OBD1 code reader for it.

This will not read the computer

 

[platinumedge]

blackburb, thanks for the offer. I'll have to defer to AllDodge with regard to the OBD1 diagnostic reader, but I'm pretty sure that Ford built their marine and automotive engines quite differently. That being said, I can't see any reason why you wouldn't want to hook your reader up to your 5.0L and see if it produces any codes!? I have a list of about 25 codes from a Table entitled "Diagnostic Trouble Codes -- EEC IV System." These should apply to the 1994 5.0L engine.

AllDodge, found similar results for the pressure regulator from WalMart, but, from my search, they DO have 3 in stock?! Was able to get a complete Fuel Pressure Test Kit (specifically made for fuel injections systems) from AutoZone for FREE!! (You have to "rent" it for $160, but if you return it within 60 days you get all your money back - strange, but awesome policy.)

I will not be a bit surprised to find that the pressure regulator has gone bad. It uses a rubber diaphragm, which has been sitting for 3-4 years, not to mention it is probably 24 years old. My "new" plan is to follow the 20+ tests in my manual from start-to-end now. I had previously "picked" the ones that I thought were appropriate, but this has led me down a bad path. The manual states, "The following system checks and tests MUST be followed in the order that they are presented so that system diagnosis can be properly exercised." I certainly understand and agree with that caveat, but was anxious to get the motor running. At least I did get it running for a few seconds. Now it's just a matter of seeing if it will run for minutes.

blackburb, the manual I purchased through iBoats was about $38, and has been AWESOME!! It has exact pictures and explanations, etc., about many of the different models. It covers all Volvo Penta Stern Drives from 1992 through 2002. (www.selocmarine.com, but purchase through iBoats for significant savings)

 

[aimlow]

b but I'm pretty sure that Ford built their marine and automotive engines quite differently. T)

Mechanically, the engines are virtually identical. Software wise, probably different, since no O2 sensor is used.

 

[platinumedge]

Had a little time over the past few days for some additional diagnostic work. The fuel pressure, on the high side, checked out to be 41 psi - within acceptable parameters (36-42). So this is not the problem, as I had originally suspected. However, the pressure leakdown test (where you pressurize the system and it should hold within 3 psi for at least 3 minutes) uncovered problems. The pressure immediately dropped about 10 psi within a few seconds. The recommendation is to replace the fuel pressure regulator, so I have ordered a new one.

During this work I uncovered something that I had not noticed before. I guess I've never taken the upper manifold off, shortly after testing. This time, when I tried to remove the upper manifold, a huge amount of fuel came out where the throttle body attaches?!! This leads me to believe that I've never really had a fuel pressure issue, nor has there been anything wrong with my injectors. (Not that sending them out to be cleaned and tested was ever a bad thing.) My new theory is that one of the connections (possibly the fuel vapor line) to the upper manifold is "bleeding" fuel into the manifold itself. And when it fills up the fuel merely pours over into the lower manifold and then flows into each cylinder as the intake valves open. This could explain how so much fuel is getting into the cylinders, but also why it idles fine for 8-10 seconds. (The upper manifold has kind of an inverted "U" shape and I think the side opposite the throttle body is where the fuel is pooling.)

There are several fuel-related connections to the upper manifold. The single connector in the front goes to the Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) sensor. This could not be a source of fuel. One in the back is the PCV valve; I'm pretty sure this couldn't be the source of the fuel as it merely relieves extraneous pressure from the crankcase. Another one is the vacuum connection to the top of the fuel pressure regulator. I suppose if the regulator diaphragm were leaking, fuel could pass through the regulator and be sucked up through this line. I disconnected the line and plugged it, and tried running the fuel pumps, but no fuel came out of the top of the regulator. Finally there is the fuel vapor vent hose, which runs to/from the vapor separator.

My question is this: If the float valve in the fuel reservoir/separator were stuck open, is it possible for this reservoir to "overflow," causing fuel (not vapors) to flow through the vapor vent hose into the intake manifold? One of the reasons I ask this is because I neglected to connect this hose to the upper manifold one time. And when I turned the fuel pumps on I heard fuel spilling somewhere. I traced the sound to that line where fuel was pouring out. This line is supposed to have a pulse limiter on it, but I don't know if that device would stop fuel from entering the manifold.

Since all components of the fuel system (other than the tank) were dry when I got the boat, it would be reasonable to assume that the fuel reservoir was also dry, thereby leaving the float hanging open, which is where it could be stuck?? I may try (gently) banging on the reservoir to see if that frees the float; IF that is even the problem. But I wanted to ask to see if anyone has had similar situations and/or could comment on my hypotheses.

Cheers,

-- Jeff H.

 

[platinumedge]

P.S. Would there be any really adverse repercussions to plugging this line (and capping the vacuum on the manifold) and then testing the systems again?

 

[alldodge]

Even though I know it has a canister which contains the HP pump, I didn't think about the float in the canister. If the float is not sealing off the fuel, and there is an overflow which goes to the intake, then it could be flooding the motor.

The canister is like the Merc vapor separation tank (VST). You should be able to remove the cap on top and turn key ON and the fuel should not over flow, if it does then the float and needle seat needs to be fixed

Would there be any really adverse repercussions to plugging this line (and capping the vacuum on the manifold) and then testing the systems again?

Don't know, but you should be able to run the low pressure pump long enough to fill canister. Once filled disconnect the LP pump and start the motor, it should run for a bit before running out of gas

 

[froggy1150]

Plumb overflow from tank to fuel fill. Then you can run it and also pull hose out and look at it to see if it's flowing. Fix regulator first if you got it