Power of 2 Stroke v 4 Stroke?

[SCO]

Re: Power of 2 Stroke v 4 Stroke?

You're welcome Vinney!

 

[Forktail]

Re: Power of 2 Stroke v 4 Stroke?

"Gotta call you this thread's villain forktail"<br /><br />Yea. For some egotistical reason Djohns and JB beat me up pretty bad after my first post, which was only intended to be informative conversation. I don't appreciate that. There are some "holier than thou" attitudes here, and snide comments which really distract from the topics of discussion. I believe people should have more respect than that. JB will have to earn that back with me. <br /><br />"Can any power be measured directly?"<br /><br />Good point. There are lots of types of Power. IMO, Power can be directly measured since it is the rate of doing Work. We can directly measure certain types of Work, and we can find a Speed or Time associated with doing that Work that will give us Power. Horsepower is a unique type of Power, a type associated with mechanical devices. Horsepower is the unit of Work assigned to these mechanical devices. But the only way we can obtain Horsepower, is to measure Torque. It goes back to rotation. Without Torque in engines, there is no HP to calculate. You can measure Work in other applications to get Power, but Work is not really a measurable or definitive property in measuring HP in engines (rotation). Torque is. Again, Work is better described as the area under the entire Torque curve.<br /><br />Please don't get hung up on "false measurement". I only explained that HP can not be directly measured in engines. It is "calculated" from Torque. Torque is obtained by dynomometers which take into account angular accellerations and rotational inertias. "False" probably was a confusing word.<br /><br />"Most power measurements don't involve torque"<br /><br />Correct. But Horsepower does. And maybe that was my point when JB brought up Work. Work is not used in determining HP in rotating engines. Torque is. I understand that JB has some technical background, but I spent a lot of time actually working with a dyno and producing HP curves. Work is not something we measured or calculated. After measuring Torque and calculating HP, and looking at the power band between peak Torque and peak HP, you can see the amount of Work that is done. This does tell a lot about how an engine will actually perform. But you have to measure the Torque first.<br /><br />Rather than thinking of HP in engines as a rate of energy consumption in the traditional sense, I try to think of it as the time element through which a certain amount of Torque is generated.

 

[Skinnywater]

Re: Power of 2 Stroke v 4 Stroke?

As I was reading this thread it was like so many others. On person liking theirs, another liking his. Mostly based solely on it being the one THEY have. <br />Weather it be one who has a Suzuki with fuel injection, or another who judges a man based on his stroke, two or four. Post after post, it starts to sound like, "if it isn't mine, it ain't squat". I have to admit, I also was guilty of this at first but since have changed.<br />Mostly I visit this site for the read. Rarely do I get information I can use for my NorthRiver/Honda jetboat. My boat is a specialized manufacture and BF50 Honda outboards just aren't talked about here. I try hard to supply useful information and I try hard to glean useful information. It's been a wash, both are difficult. Yet I continue to try with the info and at least I'm very grateful for the read.<br />This all being a preamble to a point. <br />Forktail's posts were both interesting and informative. As far as I care to understand, one hundred percent relevant to the thread. They were persistant yet respectful, factual and firm. He stood very close to the fire, without getting burned. <br />His posts were long and numerous and took a great amount of effort. <br />While I haven't always agreed with Forktail, I thank him for the professional way he provided tonights read.<br />The only thing painful to read is the perception that the clear winner of this debate is a villian.

 

[durk187]

Re: Power of 2 Stroke v 4 Stroke?

Interesting that Member "stormrunner" only has 3 posts? The other 2 are in the ol' johnnyrude by OMC Frank Debate. I wonder if this is Forktail's "twin brother" to test the water, or start an argument out of almost nothing. <br /><br />

Gee forky really struck a nerve with the old omc crowd. He did get arogant (sp?) but you boys ganged up and accused him of working for bombadier twice and writing policy for bombadier and being a dealer. You also said he had no respect and was slamming you and was a smug unhappy man. Reading thru the posts I don't see that. He hit the nail on the head and you didnt' like it. I don't see where forky said the changes were good and nice for small dealers only that they worked and were competative with the industry and bombadier would use their past experience to make it work. How can the common thread here be taking care of people that support you when you badmouth your outboard supplier to customers and employees and public. What kind of support example is that. What would you do if your customers and employees bad mouthed you. If it wasn't for bombadier scraping omc off the ground you wouldn't even have a chance to badmouth them because they would be gone and your dealership. Looks to me like you turned respect into you owe me. I can't spell either but it is bad that a dealer receives master tech award from omc since 1967 and still hasn't learned how to spell the main word warranty. How can he read and interpit the technical manuals and computers on these new high pressure injected outboards and submit proper warranty. Lighten up everyone there is looks like a lot to learn here.

Forky chill out man. You have alot of great information in that bank of your's. I for one would like to learn more from you without all the unneeded augmentation of banter. Although, you would make a great lawyer. <br /><br />NTDWB<br />DC

 

[duck man]

Re: Power of 2 Stroke v 4 Stroke?

Yea, what duck commander said. I always agree with him.

 

[AndyL]

Re: Power of 2 Stroke v 4 Stroke?

Apart from the technical stuff Is there anything like a 2 stroke howl at WOT. I love them!!

 

[ob]

Re: Power of 2 Stroke v 4 Stroke?

Will the real Stormrunner please.... Stand Up

 

[SCO]

Re: Power of 2 Stroke v 4 Stroke?

I'm in the soup now. Skinnywater, let me give you a sample of the style I am talking about. You said: "As far as I care to understand, one hundred percent relevant to the thread." The key phrase here is "As far as I care to understand". You're glossing over the volumes output by forktail and giving it your stamp of approval, even though I suspect you have not or can't verify that 1/10th of what he says is correct or incorrect. You're not in a position to declare who the clear winner is. Is that too close to the fire?

 

[SCO]

Re: Power of 2 Stroke v 4 Stroke?

Actually Skinnywater, I regret getting into these kinds of skirmishes. We all get angry, defensive and aggressive, so, apologies to you and forktail. I enjoy the discussions even though they are difficult to have without a riot breaking out. I think we are getting off topic. If anyone wants to continue the talk about hp, torque, work, radians, angular acceleration. I suggest we do it in the nothing topic. To get back to point, the same debate on 2stroke vs 4stroke exists in the model airplane engine world. That debate has always come down to power to weight ratio, quietness, and fuel consumption.

 

[Skinnywater]

Re: Power of 2 Stroke v 4 Stroke?

Sure, whatever you say SCO. I'll argue with you about as far as I did with Moosehead.

 

[AUGIDAWG]

Re: Power of 2 Stroke v 4 Stroke?

Now, to confuse the issue, does a jet engine produce horsepower?<br /><br />Turbine engine? (unlimited hydos)<br /><br />Rocket engine?<br /><br />Fart?<br /><br />Crusty old fart?

 

[JB]

Re: Power of 2 Stroke v 4 Stroke?

Hi, Augi.<br /><br />Any device, animal or machine that can do work can have it's potential to do work measured in horsepower, though in most of the world Watts are the common unit of power measurement and expression.<br /><br />One horsepower is 746 Watts.

 

[slow_boat]

Re: Power of 2 Stroke v 4 Stroke?

WOW!

 

[trollhole]

Re: Power of 2 Stroke v 4 Stroke?

Wow what a thread. Sorry I didn't roll my sleeves up and get into this sooner. But who cares what engine does what and what hp means and how it relative to didly-do. It's like a big head convention in here. Sorry JB.<br /><br />Okay so how about this. (my two cents he he) I'm more interested in being safe out on the water, not poluting the water, tying to obey the laws and to save some money at the gas pump. Now I will say I own a 2stroke but if I had the money I would swap it in a second. First of all two strokes use more gas period. I don't care what you say and who you quote but it's my observations in talking with my fellow boaters out on the water a four stroke uses less gas. Which means less money at the pump. I have friends who go boating the same time I do troll right alongside of me and they eat me up on fuel economy.<br /><br /> Then there is the whole oil mixing with two strokes you add that in and you asking for trouble. I cannot tell you how many people I have talked to who have either blown there engine up because the oil pump quit working or have disconnected it and mixed it on there own because it's just something else to go wrong.<br /><br /> Then there is the noise issue. I'm sorry but a four is so much quieter than a two stroke. It's hard to even know it idleing sometimes. Okay and then ther is the mainenance issue here is where I agree with you guys. A four with more moving parts is going to have more maintenance. But not that much you have to change the oil and all that stuff. But I bet if you took your four and a two in for general maintenace the bill wouldn't be that big of a difference.<br />Then there is the whole poluting aspect. A 2stroke is a pig when it comes to pollution. And if we are able to afford it I think we all should do our job to protect the environoment.<br /><br />Now before you go and send me back some nasty reply this is just my opinion and thats all it is. What ever you do take it with a grain of salt. <br /><br />P.S. I wonder how much longer two stokes will be around? I here they will eventually outlaw them.

 

[sloopy]

Re: Power of 2 Stroke v 4 Stroke?

WHOW!!!!!!!!!<br /><br />4 strokes are beutifull machines, they wieght a little more then 2 strokes they are more fuel effeciant (spelling) and THEY WORK TWICE AS HARD AS A 2 stroke!!!!!! on a four stroke the piston goes "up and down up and down fire up down up down fire up down up down fire" On a two strokes its " down up fire down up fire down upfire down up fire down up fire" 2 strokes dont have the exhust stroke 4 strokes do. four strokes have spin two tims and two strokes once to fire. AND still four strokesare only A little heavyer then 2strokes they use lss gas (even thought they travel up and down twicce as much) this is a great enginearing (to LaZzZzZzZzy to spell) feet. but there lies the problem that exhust stroke! thats where four strokes can loose momentom and torgue!!! then on Jet engines (this is going to hurt) there is no Big torgue loss, just the fact that they have no flywheel only need one Spark to start it (no spar during running) are 10 times more enviromentaly (spelling)friendly then 4 strokes and sound sooooo COOL! but they are a little on the pricy side, are hard to maintain, and ever mving part has to withstand more then 1000^2 pounds of force per inch.<br /><br />ask away<br /><br />stir the pot stir the pot stir the pot!

 

[sloopy]

Re: Power of 2 Stroke v 4 Stroke?

they say by 2010 they will stop making two strokes, but it does not mean we cant run them but that only inludes non fuel or oil injection 2 strokes. It will be illegal to sell someone a carbed two stroke, but not illegal to run them. someone please drain lake tahoo

 

[Capn Mike]

Re: Power of 2 Stroke v 4 Stroke?

Didn't Force make a jet engine for MIGs? I tried a jet engine for my bass boat once, but it made too much noise, and I went back to my quiet 2-stroke. <br /><br />Hey....what about jet engines that run @ 12000+ rpm. Does the 5252 rule apply there?

 

[JB]

Re: Power of 2 Stroke v 4 Stroke?

I wonder why it hasn't become popular to make carbed 2 strokes cleaner by changing the fuel and the lubricant.<br /><br />I used to run my kart racing 2 strokes on mixes of methanol and exotic additives like ether, nitromethane, nitropropane and a few others I don't remember. We usually used glo-plug fuel and cut it with methanol to get it down to 16:1 with the silicon based synthetic oils in the glo-plug stuff. My favorite was Fox Hi-Nitro. 1 quart to a gallon of methanol.<br /><br />No smoke, smelled a bit like a pharmacy and went very fast. I suspect it was very clean but it was expensive and the engines used it up quite fast..<br /><br />Any of you fuellies got some information in that area?

 

[Forktail]

Re: Power of 2 Stroke v 4 Stroke?

Thanks Skinnywater. Hopefully most members here don't see me as a "Villain". A true villain's face is evidenced by the personal, childish, and snide remarks throughout this thread . If you re-read, you will find comments about "ego's", "bashing", "flaming", "insulting", being "argumentative", feeling "comfortable", "apologies", and connotations about "8th grade physics", "not letting go", and "YABUT's". None of those things came from me…the chastised Villain. Certainly none of them have to do with the topic.<br /><br />For some reason there are members here that, when corrected or challenged, do not handle it very well. They draw lines and point fingers as being argumentative. But there are others here that can keep a topic such as this challenging, interesting, and educational, bringing out the best and most important information. Hats off to them.<br /><br />"Post after post, it starts to sound like, "if it isn't mine, it ain't squat""<br /><br />I can see that. But please remember that many members here have vast experience operating and owning both 2-strokes and 4-strokes. Their comments come from actual experience. There is a group here that actually understands the advantages and disadvantages to both. And fortunately there is a handful here that can actually break it down technically.<br /><br />"Any device, animal or machine that can do work can have it's potential to do work measured in horsepower, though in most of the world Watts are the common unit of power measurement and expression. One horsepower is 746 Watts."<br /><br />Yes, JB. Horsepower is the unit of Work assigned to all mechanical devices. In rotating engines that Work is determined from Torque which is a measurable property. Your original explanation of an outboard engine's HP is better described as Torque at RPM rather than Work at RPM.

 

[Forktail]

Re: Power of 2 Stroke v 4 Stroke?

JB, without you taking it argumentative, I can only say this:<br /><br />Our government hasn't come up with separate fuel requirements for non-auto engines. Basically this means that outboards, lawnmowers, snowmobiles, etc. all commonly and conveniently are designed to run on "pump" automotive fuel. The fuel is formulated per federal ASTM requirements. This fuel must, by law, contain certain chemicals and components that make it meet these requirements. It's mostly emission driven.<br /><br />Engines are designed around these fuels. Fuels are not designed around engines. The only exception would be racing as you mention, where not only is the engine designed to run on different fuel, but the owner of the engine is not restricted to certain types of fuel. I don't believe there are any emission or fuel standards set by the government for racing.<br /><br />There are "smokeless" 2-stroke oils that help reduce emissions, synthetics that improve performance, and fuel additives that do a number of things.<br /><br />Where I live, there are no emission requirements….yet. So I can run any concoction I want. But my outboards are designed to run on "pump" gasoline, so that is what I use. <br /><br />I will note that most recently, diesel fuels have changed significantly to run cleaner. So have diesel engines. One example was the reduction in sulfur content, which was emission driven. It resulted in changing the diesel engine designs to incorporate the modern non-mechanical direct injection systems of today.