Aquasport 22-2 INBOARD needs crate engine

[LAWRENCE Owen]

Now I've gone and done it to my sweet 1977 Aquasport (Inboard). Bent a few valves in the early Chevy 350 (compression check with the distributor out?!) and think it's best to get a crate engine. Want more power anyway. I'm looking at Chevy marine 350 and 383 strokers ... but there are so many to choose from. I need some advice -- to get a reliable, say, 350 HP, which brand/maker/supplier (Summit, Jegs, ATK, etc.) is the best bet in your opinion. Please share your thoughts; Can't thank you enough. Larry

 

[Bondo]

Ayuh,..... Welcome Aboard,....... Before ya drop in a new motor,.....

Have ya Diagnosed Why that motor blew up,..??

It'd be ashame to repeat the same problem with a brand new motor,.......

GM will sell ya a brand new 383, the HT-383 makes a Great boat motor,...... 'bout 5 grand,....

 

[Scott Danforth]

if you have ever assembled an engine, you can build a 383 for about $3500

however as Bondo stated, why did the first one go. if it was due to ship-side fuel system, same could happen to the next motor.

 

[LAWRENCE Owen]

Thanks for the kind welcome! I should have given you more specifics: It's a 1977 Osprey CC. The engine didn't blow up, I molested it! I was installing a new distributor, and using a piston stop to find TDC (all plugs out). I brought #1 up (using a breaker bar by hand) and the piston snapped off the end of the stop tool and the broken piece stayed in the cylinder.

To make things worse, the piston continued up a bit and the piece was not accessible for a magnet or my bore scope. At this point, the engine was locked up; I couldn't move the crank pulley. And when I attempted to crank the piston back down the cylinder counterclockwise (by hand), it wouldn't move either. When applying a lot more more pressure it simply loosened the 16mm pulley nut (unusual, because I had turned it counterclockwise a few times in the past).

I removed the pulley and screwed in three G8 bolts to the balancer for leverage and still couldn't move it, but it did move counterclockwise just a fraction ... enough for the piston to lower a bit... and there was the stop piece laying just inside the plug hole.

Removed it ...but worried the debacle had caused some damage, I proceeded to perform a compression check. A compression check doesn't work well when the distributor is out! It was so out of time that the pistons came in contact with the valves and most likely bent some and maybe some push rods.

Again, the pulley wouldn't urn Thinking that perhaps my new starter had not retracted leaving the teeth in the flywheel, I removed it and it was okay. Reinstalled it, and to see if the engine was indeed locked, I bumped the starter and it did move the pulley.

I don't want to simply replace the heads on this older engine -- even though it ran well and compression was 170 across all cylinders-- it was down on power. This is where I am. I need a long block. I have everything to bolt onto it sans a performance intake.

I believe I can get a good long block for under 3k ... just confused about which one. They all sound great in my research, but a few positive reviews aren't as reliable as learning from those with experience.

Thanks so much, I really didn't mean to tell you my life story!

Larry

 

[Scott Danforth]

compression test doesnt care if the dizzy is in the motor or not. dizzy simply spins the oil pump and is used for ignition. not needed for a compression test.

170 psi would indicate that you have water or fuel in the cylinders. anything above 150 psi on an SBC should be suspect. could simply be your gauge

never try to turn a Chevrolet motor by the crank bolt....ever. usually it strips out the threads in the crank and you need a new crank

if your cam came out of time, the timing chain long ago needed replacing

even if you jumped one or two teeth, the valves wouldnt hit the pistons. the fact that you still have compression indicates this.

most likely you need to pull the motor, then pull the heads and take a look

if your on the original manifolds, they may have long since given up the ghost.

you can build a brand new long-block motor with brand new parts for $3k Manifolds and marine upfit parts extra

if you had good compression and it was down on power, its not from the engine being tired, it most likely is fuel delivery.

 

[LAWRENCE Owen]

Some things I reported are confusing, sorry. Yes, previous compression tests were consistent for all 8 cylinders, and in the 150psi range. By mistake, I was quoting the compression in my little 135i BMW drag racer! (575 HP).

When I did do a compression test on 2 cylinders after the piston stop issue, it showed about 80 psi in both so I quit. Normally of course, the tester needle bounces up with each compression revolution; "piff, pift, pift". But in this case there was no recognizable pift, pift, pift -- it was just the engine turning over and the needle moving weakly in concert with the pistons moving. My two gauges are spot on.

The engine was running quite well before all this happened, so I don't think the chain is out of specs, and the engine had a good bit of going over, servicing and repairs just before I bought the boat last April. I can see new gaskets, new risers, and shiny bolts and nuts on the valve covers, heads and block.

This is why I'm thinking the valves are leaking air. Plus, the engine can't be turned by hand, in either direction. Crazy, I know.

I'll pull the timing cover and check out the chain system. I'm at a loss to figure out what's going on. As far as fuel delivery vs power, the new Holley is getting 4-6 psi on the gauge (elec. pump) and the secondaries were coming on as expected. At 3800 rpms the boat is running 17 mph. WOT is the expected 4500 rpms (maybe 19 mph). The prop needs looking into ... too small and not enough pitch perhaps. I worked a formula on the boat/power and with even only 200 HP it should be pushing 40 mph. I removed the dual station tower to lighten the boat, but no change in speed.

The engine compartment is under an oversized, heavy console which is unmovable. It allows VERY little access to the engine. I can't see how a mechanic could have worked on it. You can barely squeeze in to adjust the carb or reach the dizzy from the front. I'm going to have to remove a thousand base screws and unhook a LOT of wires, cables and fluid lines just to move the console and get the engine out. And a tall crane!

Your thoughts? Your insight is valuable.

 

[Bondo]

I'll pull the timing cover and check out the chain system. I'm at a loss to figure out what's going on. As far as fuel delivery vs power, the new Holley is getting 4-6 psi on the gauge (elec. pump) and the secondaries were coming on as expected. At 3800 rpms the boat is running 17 mph. WOT is the expected 4500 rpms (maybe 19 mph). The prop needs looking into ... too small and not enough pitch perhaps. I worked a formula on the boat/power and with even only 200 HP it should be pushing 40 mph. I removed the dual station tower to lighten the boat, but no change in speed.

Ayuh,.... Just Stop,..... Quit takin' stuff apart,...... Diagnose the issues,.......

Spark plug color, tells ya whether the cylinders are runnin', normally, rich, or Lean,.....
Something as simple as water in the fuel filter will cause a lean condition,.....
You can't hear spark-knock, aka: Detonation in most boats,....

Wot rpms oughta be closer to 5 grand,.... 4800 rpms, minimum,....

You have some serious sounding issues,.....
Lets work through the Diagnosis, to fix it, rather than just rippin', 'n tearin',......

 

[Scott Danforth]

keep in mind, this is an inboard, and not an I/O

its meant for hours and hours of trolling

your gear ratio, hull, and prop are what determines your speed.

in many boats, the whole motor must come out to service.

a leak down test will tell you if its valves leaking, etc.

you cant bend valve by trying to turn the motor over by hand. however you can if you used the starter

 

[LAWRENCE Owen]

Thanks, Scott, Bondo,

"a leak down test will tell you if its valves leaking, etc."
Me: true, but with no compression at this point, it would be fruitless.

"you can't bend valve by trying to turn the motor over by hand. however you can if you used the starter"
Me: When I did do a compression test on 2 cylinders after the piston stop issue, it showed about 80 psi in both so I quit. But this is when I believe I did damage to something to cause the engine to produce the unsavory conditions. Consider, too, that the engine won't respond to "hand" turning with a hefty bar.

You guys leave me in the dust when it comes to marine engine experience and solving power problems. Considering this, instead of putting up with a bad tooth ache, I'm going to have it pulled. My answer is to go with my characteristic reckless respect for reason and frugality, and chose to hassle with the console removal and the engine extraction just because I don't have faith in my ability or patience to fix the old engine -- even though I'm sad (for the engine) that I'm abandoning it due to my stupidity. I'm still in love with my ex-wives!

A guy that came today to check out my 28' diesel fishing boat that's for sale almost talked me into ditching the inboard and slapping on a Porta Bracket and an outboard and enjoy the speed and efficiency of that setup. I'm looking at used outboards tonight vs Chevy long blocks to see if that's viable or even affordable. But I'd sure miss that gorgeous sound of the inboard idling at 500 rpms ... bulap, bulap, bulap.

Please respond, I like talking to you guys.

 

[LAWRENCE Owen]

Something I overlooked, and embarrassing that I did, is most likely I'd have to beef up the transom to handle an outboard bracket/engine. I image the inboard model didn't require a stronger transom, am I right?

 

[Scott Danforth]

you are correct, outboard transoms are completely different than I/O transoms which are different than inboard.

your inboard puts all its force on the stringers and keel
an I/O puts its force on the stringers and the bottom of the transom
an outboard puts all its force at the top of the transom, and is trying to pry the transom off the boat all the time.

 

[LAWRENCE Owen]

you are correct, outboard transoms are completely different than I/O transoms which are different than inboard.

your inboard puts all its force on the stringers and keel
an I/O puts its force on the stringers and the bottom of the transom
an outboard puts all its force at the top of the transom, and is trying to pry the transom off the boat all the time.

That's not a pretty picture. I'll stick with the inboard. Besides, it's sexy and I get so many 'wows!"
Thanks, Scott.

 

[Lou C]

I'm still having a hard time understanding how turning the engine with the dist out bent valves. I can see how the piston stop tool could have caused damage, and as soon as I was at that point, I would have stopped and planned on pulling the heads off. If you have decent access it can be done easily with the engine in the boat still, I did the heads on my '88 4.3 that way. Keep in mind that compression tests on a cold engine are not that accurate. If you had good comp before the incident, and can pull the heads, then check to see if there is any damage to the cyl walls or piston top in #1. If not have the heads checked and freshened up and re-install and save yourself a bunch of cash. The small block Chevy is about the easiest engine to take apart that there ever was....

 

[Lou C]

Something I overlooked, and embarrassing that I did, is most likely I'd have to beef up the transom to handle an outboard bracket/engine. I image the inboard model didn't require a stronger transom, am I right?

True the outboard transom must be much stronger, taking both the weight and levered force of the engine against it, and also, modern outboards cost about 3-4x what a new long block will cost you....

 

[LAWRENCE Owen]

Hello guys, I have an update.

First, I want to say that I should have paid more attention to what you experienced guys were telling me. I believe the engine could have been repaired. The electrical problems could have been figured out. Once the heads were removed we saw that the port riser had been leaking a small amount of water into one cylinder only for some time; there was a ring of buildup at the port. Otherwise, I think it was good.

I did get a 5.7l Blueprint long block from Summit (5.7, Vortec heads, one piece main seal, roller rockers) and the marina mechanic installed it. All of the good parts from the original engine were transferred plus an Edlebrock dual-plan intake, a rebuilt Rochester Qjet (replaced the Holley), a new marine starter, new plugs, new quality spark plug wires, and new Mercruiser manifold exhaust system ($$).

The engine didn't run well from the start. Initial 3-minute test run was pretty good at first, reaching 4800 RPMs at one burst, then the RPMs dropped, wouldn't take throttle, and stalled out. It would run then stall out. Thinking it was a fuel delivery problem, I continued to start and run and stall out ...until I went a short distance to the marina.

The mechanic ruled out a fuel problem, and then had a very difficult time starting the engine. It finally started and the timing was rechecked and my guess is the timing was off before. Not being able to pay more for the marina work, I have been working on it myself for 2 weeks (I'm fairly capable, and have learned a great deal from videos and advice online).

Here's what's up and I'm stumped. I've gone over the entire drill many times;

1. TDC on #1 (blows thumb off with aggression, so compression is good on that cyl at least).
2. Dizzy rotor is correctly in time, pointing to #1 tab in the cap.
3. Carb is getting fuel.
3. I removed the DUI dizzy and installed another HEI to see if things would change, but they didn't.
4. New wires are quality, new plugs could be a little fouled now, but not enough to prevent firing.
5. Dizzy is seated properly and the rotor turns when cranking.
6. Wires are on right plugs and terminals 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 (this firing order shows up in my sleep).
7. Ignition switch is wired and installed correctly (unless I've got something wrong. 4-terminals; IGN to dist., battery to BAT terminal, wire to solenoid, and gauge connections to ACC terminal).
8. There's 12.6 v at both the ign switch and the dist. terminal.
9. When cranking, voltage drops to 10v, which I understand a good reading.
10. Along the way, I tested spark with a 4-plug tester, and there was ONLY a very weak spark on cyl. 6.

When the engine was first cranked it seemed a few cylinders wanted to start for a moment, but no start. And when I moved the dizzy to maybe catch better timing, it had no effect on trying to start (I'm using a remote starter switch). After the initial 'try to start' mode, it wouldn't try any more, just cranked at any timing adjustment. It turns over at what seems to be the normal speed.

Again, when #1 plug wire is checked for spark with the clip-on tester there is no spark. But it has compression.

Left to do today is run a jumper wire directly from the battery to the dizzy and see what happens. Also check all battery cable and wire grounds and check resistance ohms.

Can you guys understand I'm at my wits end. Working on this engine in the unmovable center console is nearly impossible except for the Qjet and the dizzy. Because of the new risers and elbows on the Vortec heads the plugs are a nightmare to reach, and working in the 92-degree FL sun is no picnic (poor me, eh).

Your help is invaluable. Thanks so much! Larry

 

[Bondo]

The mechanic ruled out a fuel problem,

Ayuh,.... Lotsa points,..... 1st off, How do ya know it's reliably gettin' gas,..??
Are the spark plugs wet, when it don't start,..??

and gauge connections to ACC terminal).

Gauges are usually on the Ignition circuit, Acc is for the radio of something,.... otherwise, unused,....

8. There's 12.6 v at both the ign switch and the dist. terminal.

The Ignition power goes 1st, to the coil's tiny (+) terminal,.....

9. When cranking, voltage drops to 10v, which I understand a good reading.

Yer starter should have a tiny terminal, outboard from the big lug, from that tiny outboard terminal, there should be a wire that goes to the coil's tiny (+) terminal, to supply battery voltage to the ignition, when the starter is crankin',....

10. Along the way, I tested spark with a 4-plug tester,

Use a timing light,...

Left to do today is run a jumper wire directly from the battery to the dizzy and see what happens. Also check all battery cable and wire grounds and check resistance ohms.

See my reply to yer point #8,....
Clean, the battery terminals, 'n ground connections to Clean Shiny Metal,.....
'n Clean to shiny metal Clean the other ends of those same wires,....

 

[LAWRENCE Owen]

Thank you Bondo, I've checked each concern and suggestion you mention here and pretty confident that all is well now. Since the DUI HEI has the coil built in, I was able to double check the voltage and ohm readings and they're to specs.
After many hours of trying to chase down all of the possible faulty parts and/or connections, I believe I'm very close to solving the "will not start" conundrum.

The 'no crank at all' condition was solved when I discovered the 'neutral safety switch' had a loose wire that was making intermittent contact. The switch is located on the port side of the ZF 63A gear way down by the starter. One of the 2 wires on the switch goes up to the ignition switch and the other wire goes directly to the 'start' terminal on the starter solenoid.

The 'crank and no start' problem has been traced to --and don't be too hard on me -- 8 severely blackened plugs. Grossly fouled plugs = no spark, no start. This, in conjunction with testing all grounds and wire resistance ohms has me boating again. Well, not so fast ... even though I got it running briefly with the bad plugs ... I have yet to put in the new ones. I was chased away by a storm yesterday before I could tackle the 2-hour++ job of getting them in. A few of them have maybe 1/4 of an inch clearance from the exhaust risers. Combine the risers and Vortec heads you get 7 plugs tucked underneath that can't be seen with the naked eye. And then the boots!

You guys must be asking, "if solving these problems was 'so easy' then why did it take him three weeks work??

If anyone gives a damn, I'll report back.

Larry

 

[LAWRENCE Owen]

Hey, I'm back with continuing mystery problems (mystery to me at least). Two issues this sbc 350 right now.
(1) with ignition key off and battery switch off, the distributor is still getting up to 5v at the switch and the HEI dizzy. Ignition switch? Please know that I have checked out all battery cables and connections up to the starter and the ignition connections. 12.5v at the ignition switch and 12.5v at the dizzy. However, with both key and bat switch off, there is still power going to the dizzy; say 5v. If it is the ign switch, it would solve some major issues.

(2) Timing mystery. TDC (for sure), drop dizzy, mesh with cam gear, rotor pointing at #1 cylinder. This location is where #1 plug wire post goes since the dizzy is meshed with the cam gear. Rotate engine by hand, rotor turning, then dizzy drops into oil pump slot. Install cap so that the #1 wire dizzy post is facing the original #1 plug area. Should start, right? Nope, starter turns over hard and slowly. Adjust timing at dizzy with far advance, then far retard, and engine cranks faster with it retarded, but still acting like timing is way off. I've done this many times and never had this result. It acts like it might be 180° out or close to it. I sincerely need your expert advice. Larry

 

[Scott Danforth]

the left or port bank is where cylinder #1 is on a chevy vs the starboard or right bank for a ford. make sure your timing off the correct cylinder.

 

[LAWRENCE Owen]

Thanks Scott. Yes, and I'm definitely using the correct #1 to find TDC. Facing the engine pulleys and balancer, it's the front right plug.