Low sea water pressure, Guardian Mode 6.2MPI Horizon Bravo II

ColinS

Recruit
Joined
Nov 22, 2005
Messages
3
I have a strange problem on my 2003 6.2MPI Horizon (Closed cooling) Mercruiser, Bravo II sterndrive. The engine Guardian modes at around 4200rpm, constant alarm, forced throttle down. Normal operation resumed once idle is reached. (If you wish to skip the detail, the question that can be posed without the history is really "While I might not get full pressure, I should expect more than 2psi sea water pressure on the flushing ears, surely?". For "what else could be the cause" needs a bit of a read Im afraid!)

I have made some progress, as follows:

On the water the scan tool shows a raw water/Block Pressure of no greater than 3-5 psi (it seems to vary) at any revs below 4000. So this would certainly cause Guardian mode. I also notice at sustained high speed (under 4000 of course) the temperature on the gauge and the scan tool gradually increases by up to 5F over the span of say 5 or 10 minutes. It doesnt seem to go beyond this though.

Both of these facts lead me to believe there is insufficient water being picked up by the raw water pump. So here's what I did:

First, for good measure, I replaced the raw water pressure sensor with the more recent/modified part. The moderate temperature rise suggests this isnt the cause, and that there is in fact really low pressure - and so I wasnt surprised at ......
No change to symptoms.

Second I pulled the (brass) water pump. Impellor looked fine, top and bottom plates had some scouring, sides looked fine. So I put a repair kit (stainless top and bottom plates, new impellor) through it.
No Change to symptoms.

Third I replaced the through the transom water pickup hose with a modified kit from amarket.com. The existing hose did have two quite reasonable indentations at the point of entry through the transom due to corrosion, which would most certainly have restricted flow to a degree (id estimate around 50%). This is a known problem on the Bravo II drives.
No change to symptoms on the ears at least.


Yet following this last fix, on the flushing ears raw water pressure is still reading only 1-2psi even at 2000rpm. I believe this means it isnt fixed, although Ill have to put the boat back into the water to be sure - however I find it hard to believe it cannot generate more pressure than 2psi on the flushing ears, esecially given Im looking for at the very least double digits.

There do not appear to be any air leaks in the hose from the transom to the pump - its a pretty short fat hose anyway.

So Im now a bit stumped, assuming that is I've eliminated any restriction before the pump and the test on the ears is valid.

Low raw water pressure CANNOT be from any blockage after the raw water pump, as that would cause high pressure, not low. So if not an intake restriction or the pump, then it could be from lack of restrictions after the pump, but that would have to be the heat exchanger - and I would have thought it has to be really shot to let that much water through that the pump cant hold pressure. And Id expect to see some serious overheating.

I have clearly made an incorrect assumption to conclude nothing is wrong, because it clearly is! Anyone got any ideas - Im just about out of them, but Im not giving up!!!
 
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agallant80

Commander
Joined
Oct 25, 2010
Messages
2,328
Re: Low sea water pressure, Guardian Mode 6.2MPI Horizon Bravo II

Well my on the garden hose I do not get enough water pressure and the guardian system will start complaining about it so your not alone there.

I did try running without my thermostat and the guardian kicked in complaning about water pressure. It appears the thermostat is needed to build pressure in the system, could your thermostat be stuck open? I would pull the thermostat and inspect it. .

I am assuming the brass water pump is your raw water pump and not the one on the block? I have seen those look fine but in reality the housing has worn to the point where it does not pump the same as it did before and it needs to be replaced.

Have you checked the exchange unit for anything that could be plugging it up?

You say that you replaced the through transom water pickup. Did you try flushing the system? There could be some crud in your outdrive pickup that could be restricting water flow. From what I have read from the Bravo outdrives they seam to become a PITA in terms of water pickup after some years. There are a fair amount of people on this site and on the other big boating forum site that have changed over to through hull water pickup. Its on my to do list. Perhaps next fall when she is out of the water and I have to pull the drive to inspect.
 
Last edited:

alldodge

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Mar 8, 2009
Messages
40,707
Re: Low sea water pressure, Guardian Mode 6.2MPI Horizon Bravo II

I have a strange problem on my 2003 6.2MPI Horizon (Closed cooling) Mercruiser, Bravo II sterndrive. The engine Guardian modes at around 4200rpm, constant alarm, forced throttle down. Normal operation resumed once idle is reached. (If you wish to skip the detail, the question that can be posed without the history is really "While I might not get full pressure, I should expect more than 2psi sea water pressure on the flushing ears, surely?". For "what else could be the cause" needs a bit of a read Im afraid!)

I have made some progress, as follows:

On the water the scan tool shows a raw water/Block Pressure of no greater than 3-5 psi (it seems to vary) at any revs below 4000. So this would certainly cause Guardian mode. I also notice at sustained high speed (under 4000 of course) the temperature on the gauge and the scan tool gradually increases by up to 5F over the span of say 5 or 10 minutes. It doesnt seem to go beyond this though.

Both of these facts lead me to believe there is insufficient water being picked up by the raw water pump. So here's what I did:

First, for good measure, I replaced the raw water pressure sensor with the more recent/modified part. The moderate temperature rise suggests this isnt the cause, and that there is in fact really low pressure - and so I wasnt surprised at ......
No change to symptoms.

Second I pulled the (brass) water pump. Impellor looked fine, top and bottom plates had some scouring, sides looked fine. So I put a repair kit (stainless top and bottom plates, new impellor) through it.
No Change to symptoms.

Third I replaced the through the transom water pickup hose with a modified kit from amarket.com. The existing hose did have two quite reasonable indentations at the point of entry through the transom due to corrosion, which would most certainly have restricted flow to a degree (id estimate around 50%). This is a known problem on the Bravo II drives.
No change to symptoms on the ears at least.


Yet following this last fix, on the flushing ears raw water pressure is still reading only 1-2psi even at 2000rpm. I believe this means it isnt fixed, although Ill have to put the boat back into the water to be sure - however I find it hard to believe it cannot generate more pressure than 2psi on the flushing ears, esecially given Im looking for at the very least double digits.

There do not appear to be any air leaks in the hose from the transom to the pump - its a pretty short fat hose anyway.

So Im now a bit stumped, assuming that is I've eliminated any restriction before the pump and the test on the ears is valid.

Low raw water pressure CANNOT be from any blockage after the raw water pump, as that would cause high pressure, not low. So if not an intake restriction or the pump, then it could be from lack of restrictions after the pump, but that would have to be the heat exchanger - and I would have thought it has to be really shot to let that much water through that the pump cant hold pressure. And Id expect to see some serious overheating.

I have clearly made an incorrect assumption to conclude nothing is wrong, because it clearly is! Anyone got any ideas - Im just about out of them, but Im not giving up!!!

:welcome: to iboats

Your problem is the one which shows up the most. Things that can cause this error to show up is a weak battery, corrosion on battery terminals, and any paint or thread compound (Teflon tape) or the like. The sensor has to have a good connection to the block.

I don't have the link but there were some defective impellers on the market which looked the same but were slightly shorter. They did not have a green dot on the package as I remember, and when placed side by side you could see they were shorter. Since you replaced all these items with no change it is probably not your issue.
 

Bt Doctur

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Aug 29, 2004
Messages
19,111
Re: Low sea water pressure, Guardian Mode 6.2MPI Horizon Bravo II

Thermostat has no effect on the pressure in a closed cooling system.Lack of pressure may be from a free flowing heat exchanger or a reduded flow capacity. (weak,defective impeller)
 

ColinS

Recruit
Joined
Nov 22, 2005
Messages
3
Re: Low sea water pressure, Guardian Mode 6.2MPI Horizon Bravo II

Thanks all for the replies. OK I need to put the boat in the water then, it sounds like I cant rely on the garden hose - although Im still surprised it cant make more than 2psi on the hose but maybe that's the way it is. But I cant conclude it's still bad until Ive done that.

Yes, I'm talking the Bravo II block mounted raw water pickup pump and not the engine circulating pump. It will be a week until I can do a water test. Ill report back.

Good point on the battery and grounding. I did actually visually check it out originally, but another thorough check wont hurt. It will be interesting because unless the gradual rise in temperature at sustained running is either normal (unlikley) or a separate problem , or Im jumping to conclusions, it all points to me to actual reduced flow rather than bad measurement of it. But Ill certainly check it out before my water test.

Hmm, I suppose the exchanger could be allowing more flow and hence reduced pressure than normal, and the gradual temperature rise is the result .... Ill have to ponder that one if the water test fails. Again I would have assumed overheating would be dire (at idle - the temperature is rock steady) if the exchanger was that bad. But assumptions are what can lead to incorrect conclusions and forum posting!!

Just to be clear, it wasnt a rebuilt pump but a rebuild kit which I used to rebuild it. The pump walls looked fine to me, but then Ive never pulled this type apart before. Here's a photo prior to rebuild (which only addresses the top and bottom scouring) in case anyone suspects otherwise (as a rebuild but still bad pump would certainly also cause this).

https://plus.google.com/photos/1177...s/5987800603459719601?authkey=CK2FoLPdvIjf4wE
 

ColinS

Recruit
Joined
Nov 22, 2005
Messages
3
Re: Low sea water pressure, Guardian Mode 6.2MPI Horizon Bravo II

Bit late in replying/updating (the reason is down below). Just in case anyone ends up here with the same issue :

Guardian Mode

Hindsight with a little experience is a wonderful thing. Turns out these are indeed the classic symptoms of a restricted transom water pickup hose. Key indicators being, slight rise in temperature on sustained running under load (higher rpm) which can be seen under careful examination on the console guage, but is more obvious on the scan tool as a 4-5 degree temperature rise. Plus raw/seaweater pressure is also low on the scan tool.

And for the record, the water pressure is way too low on the garden hose to check (I could only get 2 psi at 3000rpm with the new transom hose, yet in the water its well into double digits at those rpm). Oddly the pressure on the garden hose was actually more when the hose was still restricted. Must have something to do with fluid dynamics that I dont understand!

The only odd thing is the ECU shutting the motor down (guardian mode) at higher rmp. That in itself is as designed, but the scan tool gives no indication as to why, other than "maximum rpm exceded", which it logs some 80+ times for a single event. Guardian mode is listed as "not specified". None of which is particulalry helpful. I would have expected guardian mode cause being "low seawater pressure. But it was not.

The boat now revs cleanly to 5200 and the temperature doesnt budge at all.

Aftermarket Marine

While Im on the topic, a word of warning. I got the spares from aftermarket marine (amarket.com). Oh what a pain. It all looked OK - tracked and insured postage ($100 worth), 10 days delivery USA to AU. I even added some extra items and paid for extra/upgraded postage.

But over the course of 5 (yes FIVE) months I had three parcels allegedly go missing. Yet noone could provide a tracking number or receipt. The one parcel that did arrive had those extra items missing. They claimed to resend them ... but no that was one of the other missing parcels (no proof of posting, or tracking). Never arrived.

Then the real fun started .... a phone call every two weeks and an email every week - but to no avail. Emails dont get answered (well 2 out of 25 got a one line reply but only, I suspect, because I used capitals). Phone calls go well - always rushed but informative ..... but what you're told doesnt actually eventuate. This includes "its being posted Wednesday", "its being posted Friday", "we're out of stock but it's due next week", "still waiting for stock", "we already reposted that". "mercruiser is out of stock" and many many other variations).

But finally I was given a partial refund - but no. That never arrived. Just like the parcels. In the end I had to get quite angry and wait on the phone while the partial refund was actually credited. I asked my card number to be read back just to be sure. So after 5 months Im still down some cash, several phone calls and emails, lots of time, a boat out of the water for the peak boating season ..... but at least its over now.

While I was a bit cranky, I got at least part of the truth _ I think it slipped out under pressure. They are "not getting more stock of the missing items" because they "dont sell enough of them". It's taken me 5 months to find that out (and watch out, those items are still for sale on their website). What I think is they never had them in the first place. That's the explanation that fits the symptoms most closely.

Again, hindsight is wonderful. I should have noticed their website is rather primative. Its from the 1990's in that you cant order online. It also contains outdated instructions (for example for their transom hose kit which has changed, but the two sets of instructions havent and both are incorrect). That isnt the end of the world, but in combination with the above farce, you'd have to say those guys have some internal problems with how they run their business and treat their customers. I simply do not accept that UPS would "lose" 75% of their parcels ... they would be out of business. Nope, I think I was boeng fed false information in the hope I would just go away quietly. That's what I think. I even suggested Id had a really hard time, foolishly thinking they might offer me something to calm me down. (Nope - That idea didnt even make it to the post! - at least that saves me the bother of waiting for it.)

You can think what you like - but do yourself a favour, think hard before using them. Maybe Im just one disgruntled customer, but lets face it a 5 month saga, 2 missing parcels and MONTHS of false information are a pretty good reason. All that cant be put down to a one off bad day at the office. So in terms of a review or opinion of After Market Marine (amarket.com) that's a poor score indeed.
 
Last edited:

alldodge

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Mar 8, 2009
Messages
40,707
Re: Low sea water pressure, Guardian Mode 6.2MPI Horizon Bravo II

Thanks for the update Colin, good to know your back in business. So I take it you replaced the intake water hose and cleaned the ports?

Sorry to hear of your issues with the vendor. In the USA we just call the credit card company and stop payment or get a refund because they didn't live up to what they said. I take it in AU this isn't the case.
 
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