Some advice please......

[lffsam]

Hi to everyone.

Firstly this is only my second post, and I would like to say a big thanks for all the invaluable info I have found on this site!

I have just replaced the gimbal / bellows / impeller / on my 1999 Alpha 1 Gen 2 mated to a 3l mercruiser in a Searay 180 br of the same year, and would not have managed if not for all your help and advice!

The gimbal was a pig. I made my own versions of all the pulling tools on here, and managed to break all of them! Ended up welding a 3/4"nut to the bearing, used some threaded bar, and eventually got it out. Managed to melt the speedo tubing, and the starboard trim sensor in the process, but hey ho, its out and changed!

Also managed to snap the through transom connection for the drive lube connector, and somehow got the tracer string I attached to the shift cable wedged in the flywheel housing. A steep learning curve but all is well now.:joyous:

The problem I now have, is that the reason this work was due, was an intrusion of water in the U joint bellows, which contaminated the outdrive with water. I have refilled the outdrive, but the oil was immediatley contaminated again as I did not flush the outdrive out before I refilled it! The boat has not been back in the water since, so it must be the residue of the old oil.

I want to flush the outdrive, and have read several posts here regarding using cheap engine oil, kerosene, and diesel. What are your thoughts on this? The cheapest and easiest option for me is red diesel. Is there a possibility of damaging the outdrive / seals by running it for a couple of minutes filled with diesel, draining, refilling etc untill the drained diesel runs clear and clean?

Any advice / oppinions will be very much appreciated. I realy dont want to fall at the last hurdle!!!

Thanks in advance

 

[ktbarrentine]

Re: Some advice please......

Let me see if I understand what you have. You contaminated the outdrive with water due to a leaking bellows. Replaced the bellows. Replaced the impeller.... but no mention of fixing a potential issue with the leaking yoke seal that allowed water into the drive? No mention of a pressure test to confirm or dispute any leaking seals? Need more info on what you did or did not do during the maintenance. Then we can address the oil flush issue.

 

[lffsam]

Re: Some advice please......

Let me see if I understand what you have. You contaminated the outdrive with water due to a leaking bellows. Replaced the bellows. Replaced the impeller.... but no mention of fixing a potential issue with the leaking yoke seal that allowed water into the drive? No mention of a pressure test to confirm or dispute any leaking seals? Need more info on what you did or did not do during the maintenance. Then we can address the oil flush issue.

Hi ktbarrentine

I have been reading the posts regarding pressure testing in the adults section, and I am in the process of making a pressure test and vacum test rig, but have not performed either test as yet, as the gauge I have ordered has not arrived yet ( I live in rural France! ).

I am a little unsure as to the method of checking for leaks though if the gauge drops from the quoted 10 - 15 psi in 15 mins ( I think I got that right ). Some threads say submerge the drive, others say soapy water. Whats your advice?
Thanks in anticipation

 

[ktbarrentine]

Re: Some advice please......

If the gage holds steady for half hour to an hour or so, then you should be good (some people go all night just to be sure.)... Based on your symptom of water in the drive, though, I dont think you will hold pressure. I typically do the soapy water test (spray bottle with a dishsoap/water solution) if I get a pressure loss. Of course, have to have the drive off the boat. Then spray the solution on the seals you want to check. And you could, if so inclined, dunk the whole drive in a bath (when at pressure) to see bubbles (of course, you also need to ensure you protect the yoke/u-joints if you do this...so I don't recommend it at all). I've not used that method.
Also... some folks dont do a vacuum test... I do, but limit the vacuum to 5 to 7 inch hg max (and hold for 10 to 15 minutes), otherwise you can cause leaks. In your case, a vacuum test may show you have a yoke seal leak (water into drive) (expected, based on your symptoms).
Good luck! and let us know how it goes!

 

[nola mike]

Re: Some advice please......

If the gage holds steady for half hour to an hour or so, then you should be good (some people go all night just to be sure.)... Based on your symptom of water in the drive, though, I dont think you will hold pressure. I typically do the soapy water test (spray bottle with a dishsoap/water solution) if I get a pressure loss. Of course, have to have the drive off the boat. Then spray the solution on the seals you want to check. And you could, if so inclined, dunk the whole drive in a bath (when at pressure) to see bubbles. I've not used that method yet.
Also... some folks dont do a vacuum test... I do, but limit the vacuum to 5 to 7 inch hg max (and hold for 10 to 15 minutes), otherwise you cause leaks. In your case, a vacuum test may show you have a yoke seal leak (water into drive) (expected, based on your symptoms).
Good luck! and let us know how it goes!

It was my understanding that the yoke seal does little to limit water intrusion, that it was pretty much there to keep oil in the drive. If he had significant water in the bellows, couldn't that be enough to get water in the outdrive? I think that was the source of my drive failure when I first got my boat 5 years ago...

 

[ktbarrentine]

Re: Some advice please......

It was my understanding that the yoke seal does little to limit water intrusion, that it was pretty much there to keep oil in the drive. If he had significant water in the bellows, couldn't that be enough to get water in the outdrive? I think that was the source of my drive failure when I first got my boat 5 years ago...

I think it would be good to open up the floor to that discussion.... My feeling is that if he had water intrusion at that seal, it should be evaluated. My fear would be corrosion of the seal surface on the yoke. But if it passes a pressure test, I would believe the drive may be ok, provided he gets all the water contamination out of the inside/gearing. Thoughts?

 

[Don S]

Re: Some advice please......

The input shaft seal of the drive should NEVER get wet. If it does, there is water in the bellows, and that in itself is bad.
Those seals are not double lipped seals because it's supposed to be dry in the bellows.

 

[ktbarrentine]

Re: Some advice please......

Roger that..... I believe the direction the discussion is heading is that if the bellows gets filled to point of intruding into the drive, is it enough to flush the drive (decontaminate), pressure test, and if satisfactory pressure test, go ahead and use the drive as is (after fixing the bellows, of course).... Looking for tons of experience to lean on here....

 

[Don S]

Re: Some advice please......

Ok, I just mis-understood it.

If there was water in the drive due to water in the bellows, then the seal needs replaced and the yoke inspected. If the yoke gets a little rusty, it will take out the seal in short order. It's just part of the fun when a bellows gets water in it because people want to leave them on forever.
A new OEM bellows every 5 or 6 years, and you don't have to worry about. Since you have to take the thing apart to replace the seal, you need ujoints as well. They get water in them just like the gimbal bearing. The rust and apart the drive comes again.

 

[nola mike]

Re: Some advice please......

So then, it would or would not be unexpected to find water in the drive after having water in the bellows?

 

[Don S]

Re: Some advice please......

So then, it would or would not be unexpected to find water in the drive after having water in the bellows?

It's about a 99% chance there will be water in the drive. never see a bellows full of water that didn't have water in the drive.

 

[ktbarrentine]

Re: Some advice please......

I imagine that would all depend on how much water, how long been leaking, how much operation with a leak, etc. Proof is in the pudding. Evidence of water in the bellows would be found when you pull the drive... I drain the oil first, so I would expect to see any water-contaminated oil then, and then see the water in the bellows when I pull the drive. -Or-... if you are getting water in the boat through the gimbal bearing, I believe you're pretty much toast by then.

 

[lffsam]

Re: Some advice please......

I imagine that would all depend on how much water, how long been leaking, how much operation with a leak, etc. Proof is in the pudding. Evidence of water in the bellows would be found when you pull the drive... I drain the oil first, so I would expect to see any water-contaminated oil then, and then see the water in the bellows when I pull the drive. -Or-... if you are getting water in the boat through the gimbal bearing, I believe you're pretty much toast by then.

Thanks for all the replies and input.
I have never done a pressure test, but will be doing one as soon as the gauge arrives. I guess the areas to check should the drive lose pressure or vacuum are where the u joint shaft enters the outdrive, the oil fill and vent plugs. Which other areas could be suspect? What other seals could be damaged? I have not researched changing the u joints or yoke seal yet as I didn't think I had to do these jobs. Any tips or special tools needed? I have read about pressure testing the upper and lower units independently, how is this done? Do you simply connect to the oil fill for the lower and the vent for the upper? Sorry for all the questions, but I thought I was at the end of this process, now I realise I am somewhere near the beginning!

 

[ktbarrentine]

Re: Some advice please......

If you dont have an OEM service manual, ask and a link will be provided. You really need that to show the tools, parts, lubricants and sealants needed to perform your drive maintenance.
Other "usual suspects" on a pressure test are the seals where the vertical shaft of the lower penetrates into to the upper gearset (seen when you take the drive off the boat, inside the exhaust passage), and the lower shift shaft bushing/seal. There are other seals below the water pump and where the prop shaft exists the drive, as well.
You can (and I do) test the halves independently by applying pressure to the oil drain or vent port, and plugging the oil passage that joins the upper and lower halves (where the "quad" ring goes). I have used a rubber taper plug, but I have also cleaned the area really good and merely used a piece of clear packaging tape to seal this hole. Held 15 pounds and 5 inch hg no prob.

 

[lffsam]

Re: Some advice please......

Thanks for that. I have the manuals, but not the tool manual, and cant seem to access the online version here for some unknown reason. I am getting impatient waiting for the gauge to arrive, so am thinking of just connecting the gear fill lube union direct to a tyre valve, and pressurising the drive with a bike pump slowly. I can take a reading from the tyre valve with my digital tyre pressure gauge which reads to 0.5 of a PSI. It may lose a little pressure by taking a reading, but at most 0.5 PSI, and I would have thought that the drop would be much more significant than that if there was a leak. What is the experience of others?

 

[Don S]

Re: Some advice please......

Why do you need a tool manual? All the special tools are listed for the job in the OEM service manual

 

[lffsam]

Re: Some advice please......

I dont need one, but it helps to look at the tools when trying to fabricate your own version, as has been demonstrated in the "Adult forum".
What sort of pressure loss would you expect from a failed drive?

 

[Don S]

Re: Some advice please......

What sort of pressure loss would you expect from a failed drive?

Should hold pressure forever, but only needs to be leak free for 10 to 15 min. http://forums.iboats.com/mercruiser-i-o-inboard-engines-outdrives/od-presure-test-524743.html

What tool are you looking for?
There isn't any description of the tool in the tool catalog, just a basic drawing to id the tool. The service manuals shows the tools being used and a way to determine size.

 

[lffsam]

Re: Some advice please......

Sorry for the delay in replying
Thanks for the info on pressure testing Don S
I thought there would be pictures of the tools in the book, I don't really need any at the moment, I am just trying to collate as much info as possible.
Well, back to the story..........I have now pressure tested the drive at 7 PSI and 14.5 PSI, both held overnight, so I think that means my drive is good to go!. I tried to pressure test them seperatley, but could not plug the upper where the drive shaft enters (the drive shaft from the raw water pump ), so I reasembled it, pressure tested it, and all seems well.
I did note however that when I seperated the two halves, a small amount of drive oil leaked from the opening where the aforementioned drive shaft came from. Is this normal? I don't remember seeing any oil when I changed the impeller a while ago. Perhaps I had not drained it properly?
Back to my original question, what is the best way to clean the outdrive of the residue of the contaminated drive oil? I have read posts about using cheap engine oil, diesel, kerosene, or just refilling and changing the drive oil in a month or so. Other posts say the water will separate, and fall to the bottom of the drive, so just drain until the oil runs clean, and refill. Lots of different ideas, what do you guys think is best?
Thanks for all your input, I am feeling much more confident now.................

 

[ktbarrentine]

Re: Some advice please......

Sorry for the delay in replying
Thanks for the info on pressure testing Don S
I thought there would be pictures of the tools in the book, I don't really need any at the moment, I am just trying to collate as much info as possible.
Well, back to the story..........I have now pressure tested the drive at 7 bar and 14.5 bar, both held overnight, so I think that means my drive is good to go!. I tried to pressure test them seperatley, but could not plug the upper where the drive shaft enters (the drive shaft from the raw water pump ), so I reasembled it, pressure tested it, and all seems well.
I did note however that when I seperated the two halves, a small amount of drive oil leaked from the opening where the aforementioned drive shaft came from. Is this normal? I don't remember seeing any oil when I changed the impeller a while ago. Perhaps I had not drained it properly?
Back to my original question, what is the best way to clean the outdrive of the residue of the contaminated drive oil? I have read posts about using cheap engine oil, diesel, kerosene, or just refilling and changing the drive oil in a month or so. Other posts say the water will separate, and fall to the bottom of the drive, so just drain until the oil runs clean, and refill. Lots of different ideas, what do you guys think is best?
Thanks for all your input, I am feeling much more confident now.................

I doubt that you actually took your drive up to 7 bar and 14.5 bar. Each bar is equal to 14.7 PSI... You should test your drive to 15 PSIG. (about 1 bar above atmospheric). (14.5 bar is equal to 213 PSI..... way too much!)



The old contaminated oil should have all drained out..... If you really want to, you can fill the drive with new gear oil, then drain it out again, but I see no need for that.
KB