4.3L EFI / Alpha 1 gen 1 - stalling going into reverse

[Dima_NZ]

Hi guys. After a bit of advice.

After a few months of no use, went to run the boat - and it the engine literally "stopped" going into reverse. This was pulling away from the marina, so in the water. We went out anyway....

Back on the trailer, the problem still persisted. My buddy and I traced it all the way back to a very stick lower shift shaft (see separate thread at bottom of this post in the footer for full details of that repair), but this repair alone did NOT fix the issue. Here's the video of it happening on the trailer:

https://youtu.be/-lHACQir8q8

Here are some facts:
1. Remote control cable travel from WOT forward to WOT reverse is exactly 80mm, so right within spec.
2. The adjustment lug for the lower shift cable is right at the bottom of the slot on the shifter plate.
3. The 6-inch centre-to-centre distance on the lower shift cable was adjusted to spec, and the process followed in general with the remote cable etc.
4. The ONE PART of the spec that my system currently fails is that there is around 18mm of play in the lower shift cable with the prop locked in FWD and me standing on one of the blades to keep it there - there must be 14mm or less play in this scenario according to the manual.
5. Using the paper-cut-out template and wit the sterndrive unit off, prop locked in forward, I got 12 degrees of play - so right within spec. According to the manual, this means that the problem is either in the shift cable, shift lever or upper shift shaft. Shift lever and upper shift shaft are in great condition, so I suppose I need to replace the lower shift cable (nut of which is fully seated into the bellhousing, all greased, no obvious leaks). Perhaps it just stretched with time?
6. Lower shift shaft rotation is pinky-light, and shift crank/spool seem to be within spec.

So acknowledging the possibility of a stretched lower shift cable (that's outside spec), would this issue be causing a sudden stop to the engine when shifting INTO reverse? a few times it shifted into reverse just fine, and stayed there happily, but on most occasions (as this video caught), it will just "hit a wall and die". It's a very firm, immediate engine stop. I also built a little "shifter interrupt by-pass" tool, which looks like a padlock with a wire coming out-and-into the female connector to isolate this - and even with this by-pass gadget connected, the engine died a few times shifting INTO reverse (a time when the shift interrupt switch shouldn't be doing anything anyway, huh?).

In any case, if you guys have some words of wisdom, I'm all ears. Really stuck for ideas, short of the lower-shift-cable.

Cheers,
Dima

 

[achris]

Stretched cable would only change the position of the barrel for the 6" measurement. If it was stretched (and that's VERY unlikely!) once the barrel was moved, it all 'nulls out'...

It looks more like you have crud inside the drive end of the cable, the slide, or the cavity the slide goes into...

You need to remove the drive (5 minutes), then remove the black cable guide at the shift plate end of the lower shift cable. Pull the cable inner out and clean inside the slide, and in the bell housing where the slide goes....Also check the upper shift shaft bushing and seal (where it goes through the exhaust cavity in the bottom of the bell housing)....

Also, is the remote control cable adjusted correctly? (the other one on the shift plate)

Chris.......

 

[Bt Doctur]

pull the drive start engine on hose, shift into reverse. if it still stalls follow achris advice

 

[Dima_NZ]

Thank you! By "run on hose", is this as simple as shoving a hose into the water inlet of the bellhousing (through the o-ring which needs to be retained with grease when putting the drive back on), and turning the water on?

 

[Bt Doctur]

Yes, a washing machine hose cut in half

 

[Dima_NZ]

Great! Noted. Also - a question opposite in nature.

To isolate the remote cable that goes from the helm to the shifter plate, and with the drive still on (prop on etc), can I simply disconnect the TOP cable from the shifter plate, leaving the lower shift-cable installed. Then, I will hold the shift-arm (the forward thing where both cables usually terminate) in neutral while a buddy starts the engine at the helm. Then, using my palm/fingers, I can shift the lever back into gear, then out of gear back to neutral - assuming the shift interrupt will aid in this - then forward into gear etc. Basically, I want to try shifting in/out of gear using my hand on the shifter plate, instead of the throttle thing at the helm.

As an aside, if the answer to the above is "yes you can control gears by hand on the shifter plate", must I start the engine "in gear" instead of neutral if that's easier to control? Obviously, no one will be near the prop etc.

Thank you guys so much

 

[Bondo]

if the answer to the above is "yes you can control gears by hand on the shifter plate", must I start the engine "in gear" instead of neutral if that's easier to control?

Ayuh,.... Welcome Aboard,..... Ya that can be done,.....

But if the prop ain't "In" the water, the shift plate does Nothin',.....
'n if the drive is off, the lower shift cable does Nothin',....

'n the controller needs to be in neutral, to allow the key to start the starter,.....
If yer controllin' the starter by jumpin' it at the motor, it don't matter,.....

 

[Bt Doctur]

Start by removing the drive 6 nuts, 2 ram nuts and pivot shaft and less than 3 minutes.,]
Shift into reverse and see if the shift interrupter moves.
Yes= the cable adjustments are all wrong and your pulling too much for reverse.
No= something in the drive is causing it

Can also remove the drive, remove the lower shift cable attachment,from the transom side try to push the shift slide ALL the way in..It must bottom out against the housing.If not ,theres your problem

 

[Dima_NZ]

Bt Doctur and Bondo - THANK YOU both! Off to the garage I go to remove some nuts and try some shifts

 

[Dima_NZ]

Hi guys. Ok, did all the suggested stuff.

Firstly, removed the drive in two parts (let's look after our backs!). Shifting into reverse using the throttle does not move the shift interrupt switch. Did this a few times. On the drive side, the plastic slider is around 1mm from the nut when the throttle lever is WOT in reverse.

1. Looked inside the shift shaft. Apart from around 2-3 coin-fulls of grease with some sand riiiiight at the end of the shift shaft, it's pretty clean.


2. With the lower shift cable disconnected at the engine end, I pulled on it with one hand (and took a photo with the other). Here's pulling (pushing the plastic sleeve UP), and below, the result. The slide hits right up against the nut.


3. Generally, the cavity around the nut is nice and clean, with just alittle bit of slime below the nut. If I bend the plastic slide over, I can see the very end of the white plastic tube - through it, I can see the stainless wire. Both look brand-new (didn't take a photo)



4. I removed the grub-screw, and pulled out the stainless pin and nut (which I think is glued on?). Again, both look ace. I did replace this lower shift cable a few years ago, probably, a few dozen hours of engine time ago (haven't used the boat much due to another fault I'll write about once the gearbox is running OK again)



So yeah, short of undoing that tiny nut on the end of the stainless pin in the last photo, I'm not sure of what else I can troubleshoot.

Also, I think it's worthwhile repeating: with the drive bolted on, and a buddy spinning the prop clockwise, I can use the throttle lever at the helm to go into reverse without freaking out the shifter switch. Coming out is as easy as my buddy lifting his foot (releasing prop pressure) and it pops out. It's the fact that the engine dies going INTO reverse that's what gets me.

Stumped as ever, would love more ideas of what I can check... Thanks so much guys...

 

[Bt Doctur]

I think its crud and debris inside the shift slide preventing full travel. The slide has to hit the housing , not just bottom out on the plastic guide Remove the 2 small setscrews and pull the black plastic slide off, From the transom pull the slide and cable out as a unit, remove core from slider and clean with some drill bits BY HAND
You should find that the slide now bottoms out on the housing . Now reassemble

Dont have a cutaway pic of the slider but when filled with mud and debris it prevents the slide from bottoming out

 

[Bt Doctur]

listen closely at :"04-:06 you can hear the slide bottom out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOiJ_lxjoAM

 

[Dima_NZ]

Hey Bt Doctur,

I've done all the checks - and everything is shiny-new clean. Please see photos below. I also took a video of my slide bottoming out, sounds like yours. Please see: https://youtu.be/kyxgLZPaw2U

The only thing I did notice is that the cable has 2mm of play in it. If I bottom out the rectangular black plastic slider into the bellhousing, and keep pressure on it with my knee, I can pull in/out the steel pin at the engine end by 2mm. I marked this on one of the photos - the one that has my fat hand in it. Is this normal?

 

[Bt Doctur]

No, the allen screw is adjusted to where you can just spin the slide on the cable . Never adjusted tight.With the setscrew just snugged there should be no play in the core

 

[Dima_NZ]

Bt Doctur. When I put the set-screw back in on the drive end (the thing that has the metal wire going through it), I got it tight, then backed off quarter of a turn. So yes, the black rectangular slide can spin freely on the cable. There's a fraction of a mm of play as a result, but no where near the 2mm in my photo above.

To clarify what I meant by 2mm play - with the set-screw back in on the drive end, I pushed the rectangular black slide all the way forward into the bellhousing until it bottomed out. With the FRONT round black slide removed, I can pull the stainless rod that usually attaches to the shift plate out and back in by 2mm. This is play in the cable ONLY, as all other components are not attached.

So - the presence of the 2mm play in the lower shift cable - does this mean I need to replace the lower shift cable?

 

[Bt Doctur]

Maybe Im missing something but you show a new style outer casing but mention a sleeve. The new cable do not use a sleeve? It was only used on a old style that you had to cut to size.

 

[Bt Doctur]

 

[Dima_NZ]

Bt Doctur - sorry if I'm confusing you. My engineering vocabulary is quite weak You are correct - my outdrive is 1988, but, in 2013 I replaced the lower shift cable with a brand new unit as the old unit was jammed (I assume, my mechanic supplied the "new style" one). The boat has since only done a few dozen engine hours, thus, the lower shift cable is still pretty shiny. The "Sleeve" I was talking about in an earlier post is the black round plastic bit that goes onto the end of the core with the two square-head grub-screws - the actual thing with the eye that connects onto the lever on the shifter plate. On your photo, it's the item on the very bottom right. The one that goes onto the core end you circled in red.

 

[Dima_NZ]

So, to rephrase my question in (hopefully) better terminology - with the rectangular black slider installed with the allen-key grub-screw on the drive-end of the lower shift cable, and, me pushing the rectangular black slider all the way in until it bottoms out on the nut threaded into the bellhousing with my knee (grub screw pleasantly digging into my knee cap), I can move the core you circled in red in/out (or up/down) by 2mm WITHOUT the black rectangular slider moving at all (as I have my knee against it). My question is - is this 2mm play normal? If not, could it be causing my issues of engine dying when shifting into reverse? Sorry guys, I'll learn to ask better questions with time!

 

[Bt Doctur]

Try this. MOTOR NOT RUNNING Reinstall everything except the drive. Shift into full F ,full throttle see if upper brass shoe is in a straight line, this pic is N and F is in a straight line bow to stern
If not exactly straight, adjust accordingly.Now shift into full R ,full throttle making sure shift slide does not jam going inward .
See if shift interrupt switch operated . Yes means your adjustments are out of whack and need to be corrected. If No then install drive and test with motor running.