Thunderbolt IV 454 Timing Issue

clawless1

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Jul 1, 2013
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I have an unusual timing issue, I found a post with a very similar issue on another site, someone said it was normal, but it's a new issue and does not seem normal. The suggested resolution is replace the distro with an MSD. (http://www.marineengine.com/boat-forum/showthread.php?23206-1987-Mercruiser-454-Timing-Issue)

I'm working on a 1982 merc 330TR, the engine is upgraded to a 370 4 bolt main. It's the second rebuild in 2 years (oil issues on the last one), I did not have this issue last year but I did replace the distro and the pickup this year, the original was really worn and had the old microswitch pickup, unfortunately that pickup broke and I converted that distro into an oil pump priming tool so I cannot try the old setup. I believe the ign amplifier on the riser is a v8-22 (no stampings but 10 deg base gets me 32 total at 3700+)

So here is the issue as in the other post, I can set the idle timing to 10 deg at 800 ish rpm, however when I adjust the idle down or put it in gear and the rpm drops to around 700 ish, the timing goes to 0 deg, when the RPMs come up, just over 700 ish the timing jumps back to 10 and the RPMs jump up to 900 to 1000, This happens every time, regardless of how slowly I bring the rpms up, at a certain point just over 700 rpm the timing and RPMs jump. I tried setting the base to 12 deg at 800, when it falls off at 700ish, It still goes to 0.

If I set the timing to 10 deg keeping it under 700 RPM, it still jumps once the RPM picks up, but this causes my total timing to be in the 40's, which is bad.

Any suggestions or just replace it with the MSD? I hate to keep throwing money at this without a determined cause because this has worked properly before.

--clawless
 

Scott Danforth

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alldodge

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Its hard to tell from the write up, but are you having trouble with the motor idling or drivability issues?
 

clawless1

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I have been through that guide recently as I had a starting issue, per the guide, I traced it to the pickup. That has been replaced however, the setup with the old pickup when working did exhibit the same timing drop off issue.

Can I adapt the new style Thunderbolt IV module to work in place of the riser mounted amplifier?

I have seem a few other posts saying the MSD was a waste, ill look into the delco voyager. Also Pertronix makes a distributor, its much less expansive and seems to work in the same manner as the MSD - thoughts on that one?

Sorry, there is no drivability issues other than ideling / docking with the RPM dropping and jumping. It runs great at 900 ish RPM and above.

--clawless
 

alldodge

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Can I adapt the new style Thunderbolt IV module to work in place of the riser mounted amplifier?

Yes, it makes no difference if its on the exhaust or mounts somewhere else, same ignition just different packaging.

other than ideling / docking with the RPM dropping and jumping.

ok, there is an issue running the idle rpm. Think maybe it might be the carb? If the carb is not working to welll below 900, this would cause the advance to change when it stumbled. If you have an alpha drive I would also check the interrupter
 

clawless1

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Yes just idle - carb was the first thought and I have been through it twice this year , however could the carb make the timing jump 10 to 12 deg? Also I did not have this issue on the motor from last year. I don't see how the new physcial distro would make a difference like that and while the pick-up is different, it is the correct replacement part. I was thinking of trying the newer module to go with the newer pickup before replacing the whole thing.
 

alldodge

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I wouldn't say that the timing would change just idling at a lower rpm, but if it was stumbling, trying to stall out it would look like that. Might also be an issue f there is a slight vacuum leak

You can try another module if you have one

If you have funds to upgrade I would suggest Delco Voyager, which is normally called Delco EST that was used after TB stopped being used. That said the TB ignition is a very good system
 

clawless1

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I will go over everything again, problem is I've looked at it so much I may be overlooking something. I will also look to see if I can borrow another module or pick one up on the cheap (I know good luck).
 

alldodge

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If you have a buddy that has similar TB, even one for a SB just to check the idle issue. Doesn't have to be the exact same one to test idle
 

clawless1

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So I ordered and installed a D.U.I Marine-7000 1 wire distributor, changed and gaped the plugs as they suggested. It immediately started and ran better, I was able to bring the idle down under 600 RPM, set it to 10 deg then checked total advance. These are set to 24 deg at 3000 from the factory, it was spot on, 34 deg total at 3000 and above.

Took it out this weekend and it didn't really seem to have more power as far as speed or getting to plane, however it did feel stronger, like we get in to a little wind, tide and current at the creek mouth, I usually lose about 150 RPM and I have to bump the throttle up a little as we come out of the creek, with this system, it seemed to hold its speed and RPM better, I didn't need to tap up the throttle and the RPM drop may have been 50 or less in this area, also it recovered better when running thru bigger boat wakes, again it didn't drop off as much as with the TB4. Without a doubt it starts better and idles like it should without the big drop in RPM under 700 and the timing holds under 600, going into gear results in very little RPM drop.

In any event, I'm happy with it, it was a good price, came with good directions, boat now runs like it should, so off to the next challenge. Would still like to know why the TB4 adds a chunk of timing when it gets over 700...a mystery for another time.

--clawless
 

achris

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TB shouldn't be adding timing at that speed. I have detected an advance at cranking speed in my tests, but that's below 400rpm. I suspect you may have a ground fault somewhere.

But if the new system is running and you're happy with it, :thumb:

Chris. ...
 
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