96 Evinrude 200 Pinched Stator Orange Wire...

structural1

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Hey Guys... Hope you can help.. 96 Evinrude 200 Ocean Pro... Just picked up the boat after it had say for 3 years.... Spins fine but has weak/intermittent Spark.. will not jump 7/16" on spark tester...No history on the boat and of course former owner says ran fine when he parked it in the garage. Spark will jump 1/4" gap occassionally (maybe every 6 or 7 rotations)...Occassionally (maybe once every 12 tries) when turning it over it will kick off for 2 seconds or so but then die.... Compression 95 to 100 on all 6... Carbs rebuilt... Fresh gas.... Disconnected kill switch wire... no effect.. Disconnect Shift interupter wire.. no effect...Engine RPM is fine as it spins over... as I just installed 2 new 675 CCA batteries...

Removed the 2 Nuts/Bolts and lifted power pack off to check for anything obvious and there it was... The orange wire from the Stator was crimped/smashed under the power pack and had 1/2 of the wires exposed and contacting the metal threaded stud. I butt spliced the bad section back together with connectors and checked for any more loose/pinched wires... and checked spark on all 6 again. Oddly enough no change. Still very weak and intermittent. So I am guessing that grounded orange wire has killed my Stator or Power Pack.

What would most likely have been fried by that grounded orange wire from the Stator? The orange/Blue wire was fine... What ya think? Fried my Stator or the Power Pack?
 
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boobie

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Forgot to tell you one thing. To trouble shoot this correctly you'll need a DVA adapter for your volt meter.
 
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daselbee

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Stator. Orange PAIR supplies power TO THE PACK to energize ignition system.

However, proper testing is in order.

Lift pack, put voltmeter on AC scale higher that 30 volts AC. Connect to orange pair, orange pair disconnected from pack.. Crank engine. Expect 25-30 VAC.
Whatever the voltage is, post it back here.

If orange wire was shorted to engine frame, possible that power coil..( that's their name for it)...might have shorted internally....part of stator.
By the way, power coil wire colors are orange and orange/black. From the OMC manual!!!!
Also says do not run the engine with the power coil disconnected. If it was shorted as you describe,.....it was effectively disconnected.
Don't know what the effects would be.


At any rate, use the link Boobie suggested and debug measuring voltages properly.
 

boobie

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Dasel, correct me if I'm wrong but if you lose the power coil it will only affect Quick Start and Slow.
 

daselbee

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If no power coil, hard start, if start at all, rough running...depends on full battery charge. Power coil works in conjunction with battery....battery is obviously only connected to pack on yellow/red when key is in START position....then power coil takes over when key goes to RUN.
And yes, the power coil affects both QS and SLOW.

But the orange is what he reports was shorted.....definitely power coil.. So was there damage???...get that ACV measurement on the orange pair.

How ya doing old man? Ready for that beer when I get South?
 

structural1

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Thanks for the help so far guys. I have the SELOC repair manual and was using a link I found online for trouble shooting and it looks like it was a "copy and paste" from the CDI site you referenced. No damage that I can see to the stator and there was no burnt/dark area where the orange wire was contacting the metal stud. I have a multimeter but no DVA adapter. Will pull the ACV between the Orange and Orange/Black (manual says Orange/Black but I somehow I named it as Orange/Blue in the first post... Sorry about that.. I have Tuesday off and will pull ACV then and repost. Power Pack is a CDI unit (Circa 2008) and looks to have been installed not long before the boat was stored. So I hope it ends up being just the stator.
 

boobie

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Dasel, I'm still nursing that damn back of mine but it get's better every day.
 

Big Fish Billy

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Ibuprophen 800s for the back, 3 times a day for 3 days......works like putting a new power pack in........
 
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structural1

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OK... was able to test ACV on the Orange/Orange Black wires from the power coil. 2 Hot batteries totall 1495 CCA. Digital Multimeter set on "20". Best output was 38 Volts. Putt my 400 CCA battery booster to the batteries and got a top output of 42 Volts. Reconnected Power Coil wires. Followed the CDI troubleshooting step that said disconnect Yellow Stator wires and test for spark. Made no difference. While testing for spark with a gap tester my son spun the engine while I was holding the plug wire. I barely felt a tingle through the plug wire. I've been zapped by car engines before and an old 70 Johnson I had and I can tell you this was 1/10 of what those zaps were. This "spark" was barely anything. I am doubtful these plugs are firing when in the head.

So is 43 AC Volts on a multimeter without DVA adapter and set on "20" enough that the Power Pack Should be firing? If I am reading the trouble shooting guide correctly.... Sounds like it is time for a new Power Pack as the ACV range on the Power Coil in the guide says 43 is in range.
 

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daselbee

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Ok well, so something is not right. Digital multimeter? If so, and you had it on 20VAC scale, then ANY voltage above 20VAC would have made the meter show all 9s, or blink wildly, or some such indication that the scale was overloaded. Depends on the meter. You would switch up to the next higher voltage range in that circumstance.
In other words, you cannot read 42VAC when the meter is set to max read 20VAC.

You sure you saw 42VAC? Maybe 4.2VAC? Maybe .42VAC?

Get a real reading.

If indeed you are seeing 42VAC, then that is just fine, and the stator is probably OK.
Disconnecting the yellows will not do anything. Don't know why they insist on putting that test in there.....

By the way, pic is not viewable.
 

structural1

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Ok.. dang well I thought I was doing so well thus far. I thought I had it on 20... I do remember reading 2 digits to the left of the decimal. Which as you say would be the 200 setting. The DVA comes this weekend and I am heading on a Thanksgiving road trip next week.... But once I return I redo the test witht he DVA and make sure to note what setting I am on. Thanks for the guidance on how the multimeter works.


If in fact I am getting 43 VAC to the power pack but very weak and intermittent spark... then that points tot he Power Pack right?
 

daselbee

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Yeah....if you had it on the 200VAC scale, then you could actually see 43VAC, and have it be reading properly.

You may ask....why no DVA needed? Well, the output of the stator, on the orange pair (power coil) , as well as the two brown pairs (charge coils) is a sinusoidal waveform.
It is not a clean pretty sine wave like you find from your house wall socket, but it is a messy AC sine wave.
So, the meter, on ACV setting, will be sufficient to see if there is at least SOME output from the stator.

The three pairs mentioned provide power to the pack to operate. So unless absolute accuracy is required for really fine debugging, I generally just look to see if I have some output from the stator. Just for the initial testing. And for that, a DVA on those pairs is not required.

Where the DVA IS required, is in measuring the output of the timer base, and measuring the output of the pack on the orange primary wires going to the spark coils.
That signal waveform is a very fast spike/pulse, and the DVA effectively captures that voltage, stores it, and presents a value on the meter that the mechanic can use.

So, anyway, you have orange pair (power coil) voltage....that leaves the two brown pairs (charge coils) to check. Same setup, set meter on the first scale higher than the expected measurement.
On the browns, you should see around >175 VAC at cranking speed....again just doing this for a gross "is there anything there" output test.
It will be unlikely that both brown pairs are at zero, or low voltage. It is after all two separate coils on the stator, and the odds are low that both would go out at the same time. If one charge coil goes out, you lose STBD bank, 1, 3 and 5. If the other charge coil goes out, you lose 2 ,4, and 6.
Remember, the voltage value I am throwing out there is just that....a voltage value that I am throwing out there....LOL
Pulling it right out of my *****.
No manual recommends this. No published troubleshooting procedure recommends this. I am just looking for SOMETHING...in that voltage range as a quick YES or NO kind of test. If I have doubts....then out comes the DVA for a proper measurement.
So, take it with a grain of salt.

If those voltages are good, the only thing left is the timer base. TB sends a signal TO the pack telling it to fire. It is a very low voltage spike that on a looper like yours is very hard to measure. 0.2VDC using a DVA, and your DVA better be a good circuit design to capture that with no internal losses within the DVA itself.

Is your black ground wire good, attached properly at the STBD rear stud of the pack mounting screws?
Do you have +12VDC on the yellow/red wire at the pack only when cranking the motor? Gotta be up there towards 12VDC.
Disconnect the black wires running out the STBD side of the pack and down to the shift switch. Leave them disconnected and re-test for spark.

If all above is OK, fault points to pack. Which leaves me with a question.....can a shorted orange wire from the power coil under the pack destroy the pack itself? That would be very good to know for certain.

I have shorted an individual timer base lead....blue on STBD side....once. It killed spark to #1 cyl, and when I fixed the short, no pack damage was done, and obviously spark came back. I just don't know the details of the power coil circuit (orange pair) that much.

They also make a tool called a breakout box. You effectively insert this box inline on any of the circuits under the pack. You separate the brown rubber connectors, and plug the box in. It has switches, and you can turn individual wires on and off to see what happens. It also has probe points to use to test voltages.
So, with breakout box installed on say for example the STBD side timer base lead (4 wire rubber plug) you can measure the TB trigger voltage, you can flip any individual switch on or off, and you can short any individual line to GND if desired. It is good for playing around, and in some circumstances it may be a valuable debug tool, but you can fix this without a breakout box.
 
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structural1

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Dasal you are a great source of info my man. The Thern mround (2 ground wires) are clean and on the starboard Power Pack stud nice and tight. When I get back from the road trip I am going to Pull the ACV on the Power Coil both with the without the DVA which comes tomorrow... yeah!!!!... then the ACV on the Charge coils... Then make sure I have ~12 VDC on the Yellow/Red to the pack only when cranking. I'm reading through the manual and the procedure for testing for that 0.2 V output on the timing base is quite complicated. There are 2 4-pin connector and looks like I need to test between the white wire and all the other wires one at a time. That should be fun....

I'll post the Power and charge coil readings as well as the Yellow red reading on here once I have them. I’m hoping something jumps out at me and I find the issue before the Timer Base testing.
 

daselbee

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" I'm reading through the manual and the procedure for testing for that 0.2 V output on the timing base is quite complicated. There are 2 4-pin connector and looks like I need to test between the white wire and all the other wires one at a time. That should be fun...."

That's where the breakout box is very helpful.
You are getting triggering from the timer base, because you say you can slightly feel the weak spark. I would bet the TB is OK because of that.
 

structural1

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You very well may be right on the TB Dasel. Even though the spark is very weak and only jumps every maybe 6 or 7th engine spin.... If I adjust the spark tester down to say 1/8" to 3/16" I can see the spark cyle... like while cranking....no spark... no spark.... no spark... no spark. no spark .... spark spark spark spark. and I definatley felt it cycleing when my hand was on the wire. So something is telling the pack to fire... I am guessing (your great tests will tell) that either the Pack isn't getting enough power to then fire the coils.... or its getting enough power but something is screwed up inside and its not sending the power out on the Orange wires to the coils... Will let you know what the meter says after this Thanksgiving trip. Thanks again Man....
 

structural1

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Ok finally got to Run the Tests that Dasel suggested. Starting off with Power Coil. Orange/Orange Black with the Multi Meter on 200 VAC. With 2 Hot batteries I get 46 Volts. Reconnected the Orange/Orange/Black and tested the charge coils. Brown and Brown Yellow with Meter on 200 gave me 120 Volts... Brown Black to Brown W gave me 121 Volts. I checked the Yellow Red Wire coming from the Solenoid to the pack and when cranking I only get 10 Volts. Odd... I have 12.8 on the batteries... and 12.8 on the hot (to battery) side of the solenoid. Just to make sure,.....I took a spare hot battery and put a known good 12 Volts on the Yellow Red into the pack and ran the know good 12 volts ground to the ground post where the pack grounds. So I knew I was getting a solid 12 volts into the pack. Still very very faint and sporadic fire. No difference from where I started this trouble shooting. So looks like charge coil and Power coil have output. I didn't test the timer base since I do have the spark cycleing so I am assumming the base is telling the pack to fire fire fire fire fire. But the pack is barely putting out any voltage.

I was expecting the charge coil to be putting out more like 140 to 150 Volts.... But I am starting to zero in on the Pack. What ya think Dasel? Time to grab a new Pack?
 

structural1

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Yeah I have 2 Brand new Hot batteries (850 and 650 CCA). She is spinning plenty fast enough to fire. I think that pinched orange wire friend the Pack. Dasel and some of the folks wer ehelping mw through the electrical testing.
 

daselbee

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120v on the brown pairs is too low. I would expect to see 190 or so. BUT!!! These are two separate coils on the stator, and both are unlikely to be bad exactly the same way.
So I would tend to lean toward a possible measuring issue, and not a bad stator. You using a DVA adapter, or just regular ACV measuring scale?

So...pack....hmmm..... I have a spare pack I could send you to try. PM me if interested.
 
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