1981 Johnson J50BECIC not starting, stalling - suspect carb, please advice

[Carmageddon]

Update:
After raceone mentioned 3/8 again, I realized I mis-rememebred the setting and that is why I tested with 1/8!

I repeated again with 3/8 gap, as the results are interesting!

First, how NOT to do it LOL:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20XvQDa20u4

Weak spark on the lower spark cable (first 15 seconds):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETGccVV-dzI
While running this test, my son saw spark coming off unexpected place at the side of the engine (as he was turning the ignition key), I didnt see it initially so I created separate video, showing a spark leak on the lower spark cable!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_qxX9lKe0c

It is possible this is not an issue, since its shorter travel distance than 3/8", so it opted to jump there instead, and in practice this is not a problem with a properly connected spark plug?

If it needs to be fixed, how? do I need a new rubber connector? although it seems complete to me, I don't see cracks in the rubber..

Hopefully today will get a socket for the flywheel and verify the key is good, leaving only the throttle timing which I still dont know how to test?

When working with an outboard, you always need a common ground (the powerhead).

I am still unsure exactly where is my common ground screw, I think the one I used in this video? which has black cable connected as well coming from probably the battery?

 

[racerone]

Fix that spark leak !!!-----As I ( and others ) have stated many times-----" carburetor problems usually turn out to be something else "

 

[Carmageddon]

Fix that spark leak !!!-----As I ( and others ) have stated many times-----" carburetor problems usually turn out to be something else "

Any idea what exactly is it I need to replace?
http://shop2.evinrude.com/Index.aspx?s1=1o88ba5e20j577sjfikt3ue4o7&catalog_id=0&siteid=1
I am thinking either parts 61 (TERMINAL & BOOT) , or 71 (SPARK PLUG TERMINAL)
I think that is the rubber boot, and it seems to be in stock if that is what I need, will be in store by EOD to pickup.

 

[Carmageddon]

Ok, I replaced the whole cable today (3 parts: connector x2, cable) - no more spark leak!

I took it on the water to test, and the conclusions:

1. It starts on open idle throttle, works if I reduce it to half throttle, BUT I have to leave it that way for at least 1 minute, if I take it down too soon, even if I do it very, very slowly, the engine stalls very close to the idle throttle's closed position. Once stalled even 10 secs after I already closed the idle throttle fully!
2. If I do it right, and idle stays running - if I gently shift the main throttle to gear, it will die:
   https://youtu.be/PljBc94rXJw from second 18, notice how the cable starts engaging the main throttle and it dies
3. If I did a quick, firm hand movement to engage the throttle, so that engine would immediately gain RPM, it remains running!
4. The lake I was on today, was shallower in some places than I expected, the prop hit the ground in some places! it was spewing soil I think, there are now chips in the prop, and it didnt start back up easily, had to do multiple starts until it started (after using oars to move away to open space).

I didnt try again, won't be going back to that lake even though it is closer to me..


What do you make of the above? Obviously original sparks and/or carb rebuild and/or spark leak, fixed the biggest problem(s)!

I met another guy at the lake, he suggests to check whether the carburetor's air intake, is supposed to have an air filter inside (it had nothing, when I got it) - that it potentially has too lean intake because of much air (doesnt make sense to me...).

I am thinking, I should somehow tune the carburetor idle throat position, to allow a tiny, tiny bit of an opening so it has more RPM, and that may take care of of symptoms #1 and #2, what do you think?


I really need to smooth out the start of the throttle, or else getting a person up on the water using water skis is going to be very hard!

I still have not done the flywheel removal... didnt get to buy the socket today, nor has the manual arrived yet, to tell me what torque should I be tightening first...

• Evinrude/Johnson mechanic at the store that I asked about removing flywheel without a special tool, said if I were to knock it out with a hammer beneath, I could break "magnets" or something like that?

Thanks for ALL the help everyone who helped and gave ideas/directions and explanations!
We are ALMOST there! This weekend, is gonna be grant water sports day!!

 

[juno pierrat]

nope , no air filters

 

[Carmageddon]

Alright, then what do you think of it dying when slowing switching into gear, as opposed to quickly? adjust idle throttle somehow to open the carb throat just a tiny bit more? or what?

 

[juno pierrat]

you don't want to slowly shift, you'll grind gears, deliberate shift, carbs must be filly closed at idle or you'll get a lean sneeze (looks like a back fire through the carbs), when you get manual do the synchronization and linkage adjustments (sync-n-link) by the book, that maybe the answer, and find a deeper lake

 

[juno pierrat]

ok, looked at last video, to raise the idle on these motors you actually advance the timing, looking at the right side of motor (the one in video) about just below the flywheel should be a long flat head screw, with the end resting on a metal piece called a idle adjust stop, now a word of caution - there are two screws that look similar in this area. the forward one with a locking nut to keep it from moving, DON"T mess with that one, the aft screw ( don't think it will have a locking nut) if turned clockwise should raise the idle, 1/4 to 1/2 turn at a time, then try shifting, ( please someone correct me if i'm wrong, you won't hurt my feelings) your close and don't want to get you off track,, and were is that manual

 

[oldboat1]

If the carb, including idle passages and all jets, is squeaky clean, the motor should shift and keep running while the throttle plates are closed -- well, add that the motor has to be in good condition, excellent measured spark, excellent compression. Throttle plates just begin to open at the scribed mark on the timing plate (most motors). The idle stop screw is really a separate animal, typically used to set a desired trolling speed. This distinction is clearer on motors with air mix screws along with those idle stop screws -- and your motor does NOT have air mix screws, as you've already been beat up about.

If you have stalling when shifting at slow idle, chances are there may be other issues involved. If you need only a slight increase in the idle stop setting, though, that may be good enough to get you out fishing.

 

[Carmageddon]

ok, looked at last video, to raise the idle on these motors you actually advance the timing, looking at the right side of motor (the one in video) about just below the flywheel should be a long flat head screw, with the end resting on a metal piece called a idle adjust stop, now a word of caution - there are two screws that look similar in this area. the forward one with a locking nut to keep it from moving, DON"T mess with that one, the aft screw ( don't think it will have a locking nut) if turned clockwise should raise the idle, 1/4 to 1/2 turn at a time, then try shifting, ( please someone correct me if i'm wrong, you won't hurt my feelings) your close and don't want to get you off track,, and were is that manual

Attached close up pictures of the area.
I assume you mean the left exposed screw without the black cap?
Notice that in idle position, it does not even TOUCH the stop place. What does this mean?
I can see a linker there that I did not see before, is this what you called "sync-n-link"?

eBay delivery gives me timeframe of August 14-20, so unfortunately can't complain yet, although I had packages from Toronto come to me much faster than this one...

Throttle plates just begin to open at the scribed mark on the timing plate (most motors).

What is a scribed mark? Where is the timing plate? where to look?

If you have stalling when shifting at slow idle, chances are there may be other issues involved. If you need only a slight increase in the idle stop setting, though, that may be good enough to get you out fishing.

What issues may cause stalling when slow idle?
Since we already have carb rebuild, brand new plugs, spark test (and one spark cable replaced)...
I assume this can't be the flywheel key which I havent tested yet, given that the engine starts even if not always on the first try?

EDIT: Forgot to emphasize, my goal is water sports (skiing, tubing, etc) - so that is why I want ability to better control the shift into gear - I don't want to jerk the person trying to stand up on the skis, but rather gradually increase the torque/RPM.
That is why I am asking how to adjust this.

 

[juno pierrat]

sync-n-link is a many step procedure to get the timing advancing and the carb opening together, try this online search CLYMER MANUALS EVINRUDE/JOHNSON 48-235 HP OUTBOARDS , there not factory manuals but it maybe downloadable, get it today,I've got one and it does have sync-n-link procedure page 223
(sorry IBOATS you may sell this manual, couldn't find it fast, carmageddon needs this bad)

 

[Carmageddon]

sync-n-link is a many step procedure to get the timing advancing and the carb opening together, try this online search CLYMER MANUALS EVINRUDE/JOHNSON 48-235 HP OUTBOARDS , there not factory manuals but it maybe downloadable, get it today,I've got one and it does have sync-n-link procedure page 223
(sorry IBOATS you may sell this manual, couldn't find it fast, carmageddon needs this bad)

Thank you!
how does it compare with the original manual?
if you have any tips on how to get it free, could email me directly - my forum username@gmail.com

I don't see any reason to spend the bucks on another manual, when the first should arrive any day now... It's not that urgent..


Off topic, but if you guys know anything about propeller, please take a look and give feedback on separate thread:
https://forums.iboats.com/node/10787925

 

[Carmageddon]

I have an update after taking it again on the water, on a much bigger lake this time!

So:

1. Starting - took maybe 3 attempts to get it started
2. When taking idle throttle down, it died maybe 5 times. I had to leave it half open for a long time - maybe 5 minutes or so, until I could finally take it down without the engine stalling!
3. I was cruising the lake at WOT for long periods of time, after an hour of testing the engine in straight line at WOT, as I was getting close to the ramp, I allowed myself to take more risks, I started doing sharp swerves (not yet the 45 degrees tilting ones needed for water skiing/tubing):
   Suddenly, after a few of those swerves, the engine suddenly revved, and thrust was lost again - I immediately responded by taking down from WOT to almost idle, and filmed before it failed as I pushed the throttle up again - as you can see, lots of bubbles, no thrust, and then stalled, and after (the revving and stalling) Note that after this stall, I was NOT able to get it started again!

What do you guys make of this? I suspect something in the lower unit, maybe a gear slips out or something?
Then it overheats, and I cant really start it back again until 1-2 hours later (although yesterday when I came back home, tried again and wasn't able to start in 2-3 attempts, I didn't continue...

EDIT: We have 10 days before a Long weekend, if I have to order replacement parts, I'd rather do it soon so I can enjoy 3 days on the water finally, worry free!

Side note: I only reached up to 45-47 KPH, the seller says they were able to get to maybe 52..
Anything I can do to improve performance? Of course its a bonus, AFTER it works stable and reliable again, without me fearing to get stuck in middle of the lake again

 

[racerone]

Check the gear oil first.----Those gearcases are not robust and BIG $ to repair.-----New pinion and forward gear will set you back $1000 or so just for those 2 parts.

 

[Carmageddon]

Check the gear oil first.----Those gearcases are not robust and BIG $ to repair.-----New pinion and forward gear will set you back $1000 or so just for those 2 parts.

Any advice on how to check gear oil? I should get the service manual in tomorrow at the latest.
Can we at this point, assume I dont need to check the flywheel key despite the slightly difficult ignition? As I need to construct a DIY pulley to safely pull off the flywheel.

Then, if worst case I need those 2 new parts, should I do it DIY? or too complex? If those two parts would cost 1K just on them, does it even make financial sense? as opposed to buying a newer engine for slightly more, I assume?


Finally, I am curious, if indeed they are damaged, could it have been caused by me towing 3 person tube on this engine with fully loaded boat? Hard to believe that since water is liquid, its unlike towing on asphalt with a car, where tires cant easily slip and so the load on the gearbox can be really high.

 

[Carmageddon]

Looked around at motors, if really need new pinion and forward gear, would parts from something like this work:
https://www.kijiji.ca/v-powerboat-mo...ationFlag=true
assuming lower end and gears are really in good shape...

If not, how to know which motors would have matching parts?

 

[racerone]

???---Were you thinking that the lower unit from a 50 HP Mercury might fit ??-----If so you are in need of some help.-----Is there not a local shop there you can trust ?

 

[Carmageddon]

???---Were you thinking that the lower unit from a 50 HP Mercury might fit ??-----If so you are in need of some help.-----Is there not a local shop there you can trust ?

I was asking just about the gears, not the whole unit's shape etc!
So, I guess first thing is to check gear oil - how do I do that?

There is offical Johnson/Evinrude dealer in my area yes, but marine shops here are not cheap
Cheapest is 90 CAD an hour, that one I think is 115 an hour.

That is why I am trying to do it DIY to at least save the labor costs.

 

[racerone]

Maybe try another prop as the hub may have spun in it.

 

[Carmageddon]

Maybe try another prop as the hub may have spun in it.

Can you explain that please?
I don't understand that. I actually removed the prop before, to hone the bruises and dents on the blade edges with bench grinder before the last sea trial, and it was seating perfectly.
What is the "hub"?