1996 1997 FORCE 120 Charging & Ignition system test

[Risker]

I am not sure exactly what year model my force engine is, i found the rough year made by the carby number. Because i can't find the ID plate on the engine body.

Anyway, my force is little bit hard to start. And once I got it started and let it idle for a while it would stall, or it will stall if i gently put into gear.

I have tested. So i assume either my rectifier or my charging coil went. I have seen a YouTube video describing about similar issue i am having. And he has to replace the rectifier to get the problem solved. Here is the link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-VnMs6DiYs

And i just have my fuel line and fuel pump gasket replaced with no improvement.

But the question I have is, how would rectifier effect the ignition system? I thought the charging and ignition system are two separate circuit on the outboard, which is different from the cars.

Also does anyone have the spec for the rectifier and stator so I can test them before i replace them?

I have disconnected the battery and tested the resistance between red and black wire came out of the rectifier, came out infinity. Also the resistance between two yellow wires are infinity as well, so this means the rectifier is no good i guess.

The stator I have is red and got 4 wires came out but only two yellow wire goes to the the rectifier. I thought there should be 3 yellow wire going to the rectifier because it should have delta configuration?

 

[pnwboat]

The two yellow wires from the stator are used to charge the battery. The battery voltage is only used to operate the starter and any accessories (Gauges, radio, lights etc). Battery voltage is not used by the ignition system.

The Green/White and White/Green wires produce the voltage for the ignition system. You should read between 500 and 700 OHMs between them when disconnected from the wiring harness. The resistance between the two yellow wires from the stator (not the rectifier/regulator) should be less than 1 OHM. Pretty much a dead short.

Putting the motor "gently" into gear will maximize your chances of stalling the motor. You have to put it into gear quickly. The throttle plates in the carburetors have to transition from the idle ports to the running position. The longer you take to make that transition, the more likely it will stall. Also it's hard on the clutch dogs in the gear case and will eventually round the leading corners off making it difficult gears to stay engaged. Here's how I start my motor and it seems to work well.

If the motor's cold and it's the first start of the day:

1. Squeeze the primer bulb 4 or 5 times until it gets firm.

2. Put the throttle handle into the fast idle neutral position. On my throttle handle, you pull the whole handle out towards the center of the boat...it pops out maybe about a quarter of an inch. Then push the throttle lever forwards about a third of the way. This disengages the gear case cable and will allow you to start the motor with the throttle partially open and the gear case will be in neutral. This also advances the ignition timing which I think helps.

3. Push the key in (which engages the choke) while turning the key clockwise to engage the starter. Don't hold the key "in" for more that 3 or 4 seconds when turning the key clockwise to engage the starter or you may flood the motor.

4. Once the motor starts, bring the throttle handle back to the neutral position (usually straight up and down) and it will pop back into place and engage the gear case cable. At this point, when you push the throttle forward, it will engage the forward gear and the propeller will turn and you move forward.

Using this method, I've been able to start my motor most of the time on the first crank. If the motor is warm you don't need to squeeze the primer bulb and you may not need to engage the choke.

 

[jerryjerry05]

Sometimes the primer/choke can go bad and cause poor starting and stalling.

The stalling going into gear could be a seized/bad bearing in the lower unit?​

The rectifier shouldn't have any thing to do with the starting.
The charging system: Not sure if this is one, some won't charge unless they've gone past 2000 rpm's.

Analog meter: hook it to the battery, have someone start and run the motor as you watch the meter.
Record the readings at the different stages, off, starting draw, after starting and under acceleration.
The reading should all be different.

Do a compression and spark test on all cyl.

When it's running, what are the rpm's? Needs to be 800 in gear and about 1100-1200 in N

Disconnect the black/yellow kill wires from the harness and RPM Limiter. Retest. If the engine’s ignition fires now, the kill circuit has a fault-possibly the keyswitch, harness or shift switch. Disconnect the yellow wires from the stator to the rectifier and retest. If the engine fires, replace the rectifier. Check the cranking RPM. A cranking speed less than 250-RPM will not allow the system to fire properly. Check the stator resistance and DVA output as given below:
	Wire	Read To	Resistance	DVA
	White/Green	Green/White	500-700	180V or more

No fire or Intermittent on One or More Cylinders: If the cylinders are only acting up above an idle, connect an inductive RPM meter to all cylinders and try to isolate the problem cylinders. Using a set of piercing probes, check the trigger DVA output as given below:
	Wire	Read To	Resistance	DVA
	Purple wire White wire Brown wire	Engine GND Engine GND Engine GND	Open Open Open	3V or more 3V or more 3V or more
NOTE: These triggers have the bias circuitry built into them, therefore you cannot measure the resistance like you could the older engines. In addition, there are four triggering coils used. Disconnect one of the CDM modules that are firing at a time and see if the dead module start firing. If it does, the module you just unplugged is bad.​

 

[Risker]

The two yellow wires from the stator are used to charge the battery. The battery voltage is only used to operate the starter and any accessories (Gauges, radio, lights etc). Battery voltage is not used by the ignition system.

The Green/White and White/Green wires produce the voltage for the ignition system. You should read between 500 and 700 OHMs between them when disconnected from the wiring harness. The resistance between the two yellow wires from the stator (not the rectifier/regulator) should be less than 1 OHM. Pretty much a dead short.

Putting the motor "gently" into gear will maximize your chances of stalling the motor. You have to put it into gear quickly. The throttle plates in the carburetors have to transition from the idle ports to the running position. The longer you take to make that transition, the more likely it will stall. Also it's hard on the clutch dogs in the gear case and will eventually round the leading corners off making it difficult gears to stay engaged. Here's how I start my motor and it seems to work well.

If the motor's cold and it's the first start of the day:

1. Squeeze the primer bulb 4 or 5 times until it gets firm.

2. Put the throttle handle into the fast idle neutral position. On my throttle handle, you pull the whole handle out towards the center of the boat...it pops out maybe about a quarter of an inch. Then push the throttle lever forwards about a third of the way. This disengages the gear case cable and will allow you to start the motor with the throttle partially open and the gear case will be in neutral. This also advances the ignition timing which I think helps.

3. Push the key in (which engages the choke) while turning the key clockwise to engage the starter. Don't hold the key "in" for more that 3 or 4 seconds when turning the key clockwise to engage the starter or you may flood the motor.

4. Once the motor starts, bring the throttle handle back to the neutral position (usually straight up and down) and it will pop back into place and engage the gear case cable. At this point, when you push the throttle forward, it will engage the forward gear and the propeller will turn and you move forward.

Using this method, I've been able to start my motor most of the time on the first crank. If the motor is warm you don't need to squeeze the primer bulb and you may not need to engage the choke.

Hi pnwboat，

I tested the coil today but i have different values, I got 1150 OHMs between the Green/White and White/Green wire come out of coil and 5 OHMs between the yellow wires, Does this mean my Stator is dead?

If so it will help me narrow down my problem, I used think that the carby cause the engine to stall, but it runs perfectly fine once it get into gear.

I have a quicksilver control unit, if I lift up the fast idle lever, I can not shift the throttle lever forward or backward(out of Neutral) and if I shift it out of Neutral first, then i can not lift up the fast idle lever. Generally if I have the battery charged up and with fresh fuel, start up is not a issue with few crank.

What really worries me is the engine won't idle that long in Neutral and I have to shift into gear really quick, this makes really difficult while i am trying to drive out from a narrow dock or trying to drive onto the trailer. Also when I just bought the boat, it was really smooth about getting into gear and start moving. But now I have to at least push the throttle half way open otherwise the motor would stall.

I didn't mean shift gear really slow, just slow enough so I don't run over a rock or into the dock. I am still repairing the damage on the hull.



I have tried to explain the situation as clear as possible, hope you can understand me. English is my second language.

 

[Risker]

Sometimes the primer/choke can go bad and cause poor starting and stalling.

The stalling going into gear could be a seized/bad bearing in the lower unit?​

The rectifier shouldn't have any thing to do with the starting.
The charging system: Not sure if this is one, some won't charge unless they've gone past 2000 rpm's.

Analog meter: hook it to the battery, have someone start and run the motor as you watch the meter.
Record the readings at the different stages, off, starting draw, after starting and under acceleration.
The reading should all be different.

Do a compression and spark test on all cyl.

When it's running, what are the rpm's? Needs to be 800 in gear and about 1100-1200 in N

Disconnect the black/yellow kill wires from the harness and RPM Limiter. Retest. If the engine’s ignition fires now, the kill circuit has a fault-possibly the keyswitch, harness or shift switch. Disconnect the yellow wires from the stator to the rectifier and retest. If the engine fires, replace the rectifier. Check the cranking RPM. A cranking speed less than 250-RPM will not allow the system to fire properly. Check the stator resistance and DVA output as given below:
	Wire	Read To	Resistance	DVA
	White/Green	Green/White	500-700	180V or more

No fire or Intermittent on One or More Cylinders: If the cylinders are only acting up above an idle, connect an inductive RPM meter to all cylinders and try to isolate the problem cylinders. Using a set of piercing probes, check the trigger DVA output as given below:
	Wire	Read To	Resistance	DVA
	Purple wire White wire Brown wire	Engine GND Engine GND Engine GND	Open Open Open	3V or more 3V or more 3V or more
NOTE: These triggers have the bias circuitry built into them, therefore you cannot measure the resistance like you could the older engines. In addition, there are four triggering coils used. Disconnect one of the CDM modules that are firing at a time and see if the dead module start firing. If it does, the module you just unplugged is bad.​

Hi JerryJerry5,
Thanks for the reply.
I didn't realize the primer bulb could be an issue until you mentioned it, I haven't start the boat for a while and the primer bulb is rock hard to squeeze, I am going to replace it now.
Also I have measured the yellow wires come out of stator, it has 1150 OHMs which is out of spec, I am going to replace it as well and see what happens.
I might also test the trigger when i am replacing the stator.
Do you have the spec for the rectifier? But I guess its bad anyway as there are no resistance between the yellow wires and battery wires.

 

[jerryjerry05]

When I say primer, I mean the choke/primer not the squeezie.
The top 4 posts in this section have tips and procedures for some repairs for your motor.
U-tube has lots of videos that are a big help too!!
DO NOT USE A MAINTAINENCE FREE OR AGM BATTERY WITH THIS RECTIFIER AS DAMAGE TO ELECTRICAL PARTS MAY OCCUR!!!

outboardignitin.com has test procedures.
You have the "alternator driven ignition"
The link to the test procedures.
https://www.outboardignition.com/forcesearch.asp?cat=itemname&cval=3&hval=38&val=7

The results on your stator, the original might have different readings than an aftermarket unit.
It might not be bad??

 

[pnwboat]

The 1995/1996 and later Force motors use a solid state ignition trigger sensor so you cannot perform a resistance check like the older models. The fact that the motor does run, maybe not all that great would indicate that it's probably OK.

As far as checking the rectifier/regulator with an OHM meter, it's not really possible since it has multiple components that make up the internal circuitry. The best way to check it is while running. If you measure between 13.5 and 14.5 volts DC at the battery terminals with the motor running at 2500 RPM's or more, then it is probably fine. If you see 12.7 volts DC or lower, then it is not working.

1150 OHMs between the Green/White and White/Green wires when disconnected from the wiring harness indicates a bad stator if it an original factory stator. I believe it is an original factory stator as you mentioned it was red. I am not aware of any after-market manufacturers that make a red replacement stator.

The after-market stators available from CDI Electronics measure between 400 - 600 OHMs between the White/Green and Green/White wires are available on IBoats and several other on-line sites, or used units on the auction sites.

Attached is a picture of the choke/primer of "fuel enrichment solenoid" that Jerry mentioned. It is usually mounted between the carburetors and has a small fuel line that goes to it from the carb fuel bowl of the upper carb (fuel supply line), and two more lines that go the the base of each carb. There is a two wire electrical connector that operates the solenoid valve which allows extra fuel to be sprayed into the engine when you push inward on the ignition key when starting a cold engine.

 

[roscoe]

Really hard to follow this with the vague and info not provided.

Please, first, identify the model and year.
There were at least 3 different ignition systems used on that motor in the mid 90's.
And testing procedures/specs, are different for each one.
Post photos of the ignition plate for us to see.

Second, perform basic diagnostics, compression, spark while cranking, and spark while running.
Third, inspect spark plugs after it has run a while.
Look for dis similar plugs.
Try squirting a bit of fuel in the carbs when it appears to be stalling.
Check all wires and connections for corrosion, loose connections, broken insulation, make sure the ground wires on the ignition plate are all secure.
What are the rpm's when running?
Are you using proper starting procedure?
What leads you to believe it is a spark issue, and not fuel delivery issue?

Do you have cd, switchbox, or cdm ignition system?

Does your motor have a choke solenoid, or a fuel enrichment valve?