Hello!

[sopwithcamel74]

Hi everyone - long time boat lover, only recently having purchased my first boat - a 1988 Capri 1700 with a surprisingly well maintained Force 85 outboard. As expected, there are definitely some areas that will be getting plenty of TLC throughout the fall and winter...

I'm very much aware of the stigma tied to these era of boats and their issues - how most advise to avoid purchasing, or else sell them for parts and use the money to buy something else. This particular boat was well taken care of enough (and the price low enough) that I didn't bat an eyelash before acquiring it - and that was after having already done all of my homework on what to look for (new to boat ownership, but I've been around them for well over twenty years). I also had a much more experienced set of eyes looking over everything with me, and we both agree that it's a fairly solid boat with good years ahead of it, even if left as it was.

I'd like to know whether anyone's had any success rigging anything other than the factory trim/tilt assembly on one of these engines. I'm not dead set against just replacing it with the same parts, but if there are more reliable alternatives out there, I'd be willing to explore them.

Thanks for having me. Hope to learn as much as I can from you all!

 

[Jiggz]

Search for CMC Tilt and Trim System.

 

[sopwithcamel74]

Search for CMC Tilt and Trim System.

First time seeing these - thank you! Doing my due diligence as far as research right now.

 

[Jiggz]

Well you don't have to restrict your search on this forum but also on others to see how the CMC systems work. However, I do recall reading forum members installing CMC T&T for their Force motors although that was a long time ago.

 

[sopwithcamel74]

I'm looking on a few different forums, and also reading reviews on retailer's sites. So far, it looks like a very solid choice that fits a wide range of applications. The build construction, by all indications, seems to be solid, and I appreciate the 1-year pump and 5-year structure warranties - that suggests that the manufacturer is confident it'll stand the rigors such a device demands.

Definitely a case where the up front cost would likely be justified over saving a few fractions of a boat buck. The used OEM replacement parts (motor, pump, piston/rams, etc.) can be found for less than 1/3 of the price as the CMC unit that I'd need, but dropping $200-$300 bucks only to have the system fail within a year's time would literally make me sick.

Aside from getting my feet wet at the ramp and taking a bit of a performance hit, it's functional as is. And I know that I won't have this boat forever. But it's still a balance between making it a more comfortable overall experience vs. not overspending. I'll see if I can find the posts here, given how active this place has been so far - confident that I'll continue to get great perspectives and straight talk.

 

[jerryjerry05]

The OEM T@T should work and last a long time.
My old motors, the T@T lasted over 24 years until I removed and repowered.
Then I sold them, and as far as I know?? they still work.

If the trim cyl. or tilt ram is damaged?? the whole unit can be replaced even repaired.
The pump itself never seems to go bad, just 2 seals needing replacement(fairly easy job)

What's yours doing or not doing?
The top posts in this forum have a section relating to the T@T repairs.

 

[sopwithcamel74]

The OEM T@T should work and last a long time.
My old motors, the T@T lasted over 24 years until I removed and repowered.
Then I sold them, and as far as I know?? they still work.

If the trim cyl. or tilt ram is damaged?? the whole unit can be replaced even repaired.
The pump itself never seems to go bad, just 2 seals needing replacement(fairly easy job)

What's yours doing or not doing?
The top posts in this forum have a section relating to the T@T repairs.

Thanks for asking, and for sharing your own personal experiences!

I should have specified as much initially, for the sake of clarity; the T&T assembly was removed prior to me purchasing the boat. The previous owner decided that it wasn't cost effective to repair it, purportedly sold it for parts, and raised/lowered the engine manually during the last few years that he had it in the water. Needless to say, that factored in the price that I paid, but it wasn't an inhibitor given that the boat runs well enough for now (just getting out on the local rivers/lakes to tool around and fish with the family) without the use of trim.

Initially I only considered OEM, but they seem to have a high failure rate. I (maybe incorrectly?) attributed this to the parts being less-than-great to begin with - not to mention, them having been made so long ago. Instances like yours still seem to be in the minority - is that simply the squeaky wheel analogy at play, in that those happy with theirs aren't being heard? If so, it'll factor into whatever decision I ultimately make.

 

[Simple_Man]

I installed a used OEM unit a few years ago. Very happy I did. If you go with used just try to make sure it was a fresh water unit.

 

[sopwithcamel74]

I installed a used OEM unit a few years ago. Very happy I did. If you go with used just try to make sure it was a fresh water unit.

Thanks for the info, and for the recommendation! A few of the ones that I've been eyeing are reportedly from freshwater vessels - those would definitely be my first preference if I go that route.

Aside from the up-front savings, I suppose that there's a vanity aspect to me wanting to go the OEM route. And though it can be argued that it wasn't practical to buy the boat that I did to begin with - price notwithstanding - I do want whatever choice I make to be a sensible one, when taking all other factors into consideration.

 

[jerryjerry05]

Usually the only problem is the 2 washers in the bottom of the pump.
Rarely the tilt ram will leak but that's very rare.
Lack of lubrication on the pivot points can cause excessive pressure on the pump and cause problems.
I had a customer who didn't know you needed to grease the zerks(he called them the little pointey things )
The pump actually bent the tilt ram at a 35d angle.

 

[sopwithcamel74]

What about a pump that is purported 'wasn't hooked up properly'? If the hydraulic lines aren't connected, would that be a red flag?

 

[jerryjerry05]

I guess it would be possible to hook them up wrong but I've found it's really hard to get them to align
on the wrong holes.
The lines not connected: check the threads in the valve body.
They can be re-tapped but it's a PITA.

 

[sopwithcamel74]

Thank you. That opens up a couple opportunities to get one at a really, really good price... Not sure if I'll pull the trigger right away on the purchase - picked up a couple other items in the last week that I've also had my eye on.

Dunno if I mentioned it, but I'm not 'allowed' to begin until I finish a building project that'll increase our storage, which will in turn free up our extra bedroom for the wife to do as she pleases with. So for 2 months now I've been making lists, researching, and buying tools and parts as I'm able.

I hate missing a great price, but it seems that patience and diligence present other opportunities down the road. It's just funny how the more things I buy, the more my list of wants keeps getting longer. Go figure.

Really looking forward to starting my own restoration thread. I have to admit, I'm 100% addicted to reading every one that I come across... Keeps me focused on what I need to do, to say the least.

 

[jerryjerry05]

This is part of my signature:

Tools to make my life easier: Battery tester, die grinder, temp.gun, compression tester, DVA meter.​

The list is much bigger but these make my work a lot easier.
The temp gun was under $20 but this weekend was worth about a $1000

IF?? your gonna have a boat,motorcycle,even a toy wagon, you need to be able to fix them.

 

[sopwithcamel74]

This is as a good reason as I'll ever have to update/replace a decent chunk of my old tools.

Yesterday's pickups included digital calipers, a test light, and feeler gauges. Within the past couple of weeks I've updated my soldering set, heat gun, hole saw set, orbital sander, polishers, and a few other odds and ends.

During that same time frame I've also gotten a ski locker hatch and frame at a fair price, a locking glove box, and will be looking at a set of loungers after work this evening. Got a new starting battery, have priced new wiring, breaker and fuse boxes, and battery switch from a mix of online and local retailers. Also have priced and will get any needed fiberglass supplies from a local retailer that has a good selection and fair prices.

I sneak in a few minutes every day with menial tasks - wifey doesn't seem to mind it so long as she doesn't see any dust flying or hear tools being run. I'm not wasting time out there either - it's all useful stuff... But I won't really feel like I've accomplished much till the seats, carpet, and decking our out and I can REALLY survey the rest.

Projects will be all across the spectrum - structural, mechanical, and electrical. Luckily, the old Force 85 continues to give every indication of being the best cared for system out of everything. Steering and shifting is smooth. And she floats without taking on any water, ha.

So far, besides the obvious deck and interior work:
- Ignition system - I can jump her off from the starter, but firing up from the dash is a no-go. Found lots of great threads on this here, so I've got a plan in place!
- Gas tank. Was advised to avoid using it, so I'll be pulling it out to see if just needs a good cleaning, or if it's trashed and needs to be replaced altogether. Will go through entire fuel delivery system while I'm at it, likely replacing most of what's there just to be safe. Will also add a fuel water separator.
- Trailer TLC - new tires are a must. Likely will get new springs, and at the very least do routine maintenance on everything from the u-bolts to the dust caps.
- New seat boxes, from bow to stern. What's there was refurbished at some point, but like the floors the work was not up to par.
- 2nd battery. Will likely tweak the starboard jump seat box layout to accommodate this. Still not 100% sure about the weight distribution, but haven't seen a ton of solid examples on how others have done it on smaller vessels like this one.
- Electrical rewire throughout the cabin. It's functional, but it's old, and has been repaired a few times from the looks of it. I'll be adding a new stereo system, auto bilge, and a few other accessories (charging ports, new fish finder, etc.), and want a strong, reliable infrastructure.
- Trim/tilt - I can live with out it for now, still not sure if I'll address it sooner or later.

My assessment(s) will change when I start tearing things apart in earnest, but that's the general idea I have formed after looking things over.

I've done a lot of wood working in my spare time, and tinkered with both electrical and mechanical projects. Feel I'll be up to the task, but will still lean heavily on the know-how and encouragement I know I'll get from here.

 

[jerryjerry05]

You should be able to get to the tank sending unit and remove it to inspect the tank,
no need to remove the whole thing.

The no start from the dash? there might be a fuse in a fuse block (under the dash)that might need changing or
the contacts need cleaning?

 

[sopwithcamel74]

Not having to pull it would save me some trouble; just seemed a good idea since the decking's all being replaced.

I do hope that redoing the wiring takes fixes the issue with no starting from the dash. Still has one of the old style fuse holders - going to upgrade that for sure.

 

[Simple_Man]

I have a 1987 Capri. The sending unit is under the splash well. very easy to get to.

 

[sopwithcamel74]

I actually got in there and took a look - it's a little tight, but you can access everything on the back side of the tank from under there.

Wow, was that area on mine a mess! I might have to sneak around behind the wife's back and clear it out sooner rather than later. Found an old bilge pump under a pile of rode, and the transducer to the Eagle SeaCharter with GPS that's affixed to the dash that may or may not be functioning; guess I'll test it along with everything else when I'm free to begin tearing everything apart.

 

[Simple_Man]

What is your location