Why I Crimp And Never Solder

[Ralph 123]

Actually what it says is:<br /><br />"Solder shall not be the sole means of mechanical connection in any circuit.”11.16.3.7.<br /><br />and then<br /><br />"Solderless crimp on connectors shall be attached with the type of crimping tools designed for the connector used, and that will produce a connection meeting the requirements of E-11.16.3.3.” 11.16.3.8.<br /><br />"Terminal connectors shall be the ring or captive spade types.” 11.16.3.4.<br /><br />"Twist on connectors, i.e., wire nuts, shall not be used.” 11.16.3.6.<br /><br />"Ring and captive spade type terminal connectors shall be the same nominal size as the stud.” 11.16.4.1.12.<br /><br />And then you have people like Don Casey <br /> http://www.boatus.com/boattech/casey/05.htm

 

[18rabbit]

Why I Crimp And Never Solder

Hi. I need to rewire my boat. I was wondering if I should crimp the connections or solder them. Which is better?<br /> <br /><br />Ok, seriously... I mentioned this last year and it hasn’t come up since so I’ll mention it again for those that are new to the solder/crimp wars…um, I mean debate. Awhile back I met someone that was an insurance adjuster for a company that underwrites policies for boats. She basically said her job was to find any reason why her company could not be held liable for refusing to pay out on a claim. She looks for anything, everything...including electrical.<br /><br />That is why I will never solder a connection. The ABYC is the industry std for boat electric and they say crimp, so crimp it is. It’s not about crimp vs solder. It’s about avoiding a potential hassle with an insurance company. The replacement value of my boat is such that there is no way an insurer is going to pass on a thorough inspection of anything that remains, should something go wrong. The last thing I will need is for someone to ask me if there were any soldered connections.<br /><br />I suppose there is a point of diminishing returns, where an insurance company figures it’s less expensive to just write a check for a boat than to inspect the remains. So for vessels of lesser value, crimping or soldering is a choice you can afford to make, but not me.

 

[demsvmejm]

Re: Why I Crimp And Never Solder

I ask again, WHERE is it written in the ABYC standards that Thou shalt crimp. Thou shalt not solder? And if you think the insurance issue is a viable argument, any insurance company will try it's best to cheat you on your claim. What you only had two life jackets on board and three people? Your boat was struck while moored and soank, tough. you didn't adhere to the rules. So if you want to defend your position for crimping and know what the ABYC regs say, enlighten the rest of us. If you can't, then there is significant doubt as to the existance of such specific, questionable regulation.

 

[chuckz]

Re: Why I Crimp And Never Solder

"Solder shall not be the sole means of mechanical connection in any circuit.”

One more time. Solder is a two step process. First splice then solder. Solder is for electrical integrity, the splice is required for mechanical integrity. The regulations could say, "Only properly soldered connections are acceptable" and it would mean the same thing.

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: Why I Crimp And Never Solder

What about a solder lug? No splicing involved in that case. Just solder. It's possible to properly solder a lug and have it be the sole means of mechanical connection. As long as solder is not your sole means of mechanical connection you pass the ABYC test.

 

[chuckz]

Re: Why I Crimp And Never Solder

I have never used a solder lug without crimping first. That's how I was taught and all I have ever seen in electronic test equipment and mil spec electronics.

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: Why I Crimp And Never Solder

That's my point. It can be "properly" soldered and be unacceptable to the ABYC. There are plenty of mil-spec connectors and lugs that are solder-only. Like this one for example:<br /><br />

<br /><br />I've never seen an A&D connector, terminal or anything else that is crimp and solder. Not saying the don't exist I just never saw one in all my years in the industry.<br /><br />Now the "objection" I've read regarding crimp and solder is that by heating the crimp, you soften the metal thereby weakening the joint. However, it should pass the ABYC test since solder is not the sole means of mechanical connection.

 

[JB]

Re: Why I Crimp And Never Solder

Oh good grief.

 

[ZmOz]

Re: Why I Crimp And Never Solder

Originally posted by JB:<br /> Oh good grief.

Agreed.

 

[crab bait]

Re: Why I Crimp And Never Solder

solder is easy to do right,also..<br /><br />then you can put tape on .dip on. heat shrink on. or bubble gum on.. <br /><br />cause it' sealed ..forever.. impervious to the elements .. cause it's sealed by solder..

 

[jlinder]

Re: Why I Crimp And Never Solder

This will never end. Those who want solder seem to ignore any argument given. I have asked for information showing solder was good to do, only to be told that I just must want to cut corners and did not want to do it right.<br /><br />A few months ago I posted a question (maybe you could say I issued a challange). The question was: Does anyone have experience with electrical connections, properly soldered vs. properly crimped, that have endured/failed over time? <br /><br />The only replies I got were from someone with crimped only connections, on a navy surplus boat, that had endured many years (think it was either 14 years or 20 years) with no problems.<br /><br />No one answered that they had crimp only connections that had problems.<br /><br />No one answered that had solder connections.<br /><br />Don't tell me solder is needed unless you have proof or experience. Just because you repeat it at every chance doesn't make it so.<br /><br />I still want to hear from anyone with experience. Got an old connection that worked or didn't work. Tell us the facts.<br /><br />As for crimping - if you use the proper tools it is hard to do wrong. Then cover with an adhesive backed heat shrink<br /><br />The only claim for solder is that it blocks corrosion fron getting in. The heat shrink takes care of that beautifully.<br /><br />Solder is easy to do wrong. Every heard of cold solder joints? Also, there is a question of whether or not the heat needed can weaken the crimp connectors crimp.<br /><br />Crimp. Use the right tools. Seal with heat shrink. It will give you at least 20 years.

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: Why I Crimp And Never Solder

Here's my experience:<br /><br />1979 Formula Liberator with twin Merc 260s offshore speedboat all original wiring all crimped. Used in MA and FL most of it's life. Built on Thunder boat row. It all worked when I decided to gut and rebuild from scratch - so that's about 20+ years hard ocean boating and some racing. <br /><br />1980 Scarab offshore speedboat, twin 454s similar history as my Formula. All wiring crimped and working.

 

[Paul Moir]

Re: Why I Crimp And Never Solder

Rule 11.16.3.7 is followed by this:<br />

EXCEPTION: Battery lugs with a solder contact length of not less than 1.5 times the diameter of the conductor.<br /><br />NOTE: When a stranded conductor is soldered, the soldered portion of the conductor becomes a solid strand conductor, and flexing can cause the conductor to break at the end of the solder joint unless adequate additional support is provided.<br />

I included the note for completeness. So solder only lugs, in other words solder joints without mechanical attachment, are specifically allowed in this case.<br />As for the argument that soldering a crimped connector weakens a crimp due to annealing, I've been biting my tongue wanting to ask how in hell does one anneal copper with a soldering iron? Sounds to me like that argument was pulled out of someone's... I mean to say, that the argument doesn't appear to have ever been empirically tested.<br />I for one find this particular debate to be great entertainment.

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: Why I Crimp And Never Solder

Ever watch a metal worker heat up a piece of metal to soften it so it can be shaped? I watched Jesse james on TDC build a gas tank (I think it was the copper one for MM II) and he just heated it a bit so he could easily form the shape. 50/50 solder melts at 420°F I think it would be an interesting test to run though... BTW the people who contributed to the article where that statement was made were: Lysle Gray, Technical Director, ABYC, Paul Michalczyk of ANCOR Marine, and Jim Vaughn of FTZ Industries.<br /><br />EDIT<br /><br />Ok, this is what I was able to find:<br /><br />

<br />Electrolytic tough pitch copper is the preferred material for current-carrying members...<br /><br />Temperatures above 200°C will soften tough pitch copper to a tensile strength of 300 to 240 MPa. The three silver-bearing coppers resist softening up to about 340°C, and are less susceptible to creep rupture in highly stressed parts such as turbo generator windings and high-speed commutators...<br /><br /> http://www.key-to-metals.com/PrintArticle.asp?ID=79 <br />

So 200°C = 392°F which is less than the melting point of solder. So there seems to be a basis for the claim.

 

[jlinder]

Re: Why I Crimp And Never Solder

Paul,<br />You are correct that there is a lack of evidence that heat will damage the crimp. But there is the question that it can.<br /><br />Also, I have seen people solder with blow torches. Good for plumbing, bad for electrical. Real question there on damaging the crimp.<br /><br />Ralph - thanks for the example. Another report of actual experience.<br /><br />It's just this, if you crimp with the right tools and seal, it works. Add solder and what do you get? The claim is that is seals out corrosion, but sealing has proven to do that nicely.<br /><br />What can happen with solder? Possible damage to the integrity of the crimp by weaking the metal. Possible bad solder joint. Possible wicking of the solder causing the wire to stiffen and have problems with vibration.<br /><br />Seems like a lot of possible problems for a questionable advantage.<br /><br />Sorry if my post earlier sounded angry. I've just gotten tired of pro-solderers telling me I just want to cut corners and don't want to do it right because I don't agree with them.

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: Why I Crimp And Never Solder

Actually it is fascinating when you start to dig into the material science of it all. In short, cold working metal increases the hardness and strength of a metal while decreasing its ductility. Heating metal (annealing) beyond its recrystallization temperature (250f for Cu) softens it and makes it more ductile. <br /><br />So, it seems that by heating the metal after cold working it you can undo the effects of cold working. Now, does that mean by heating a joint after you've crimped it (cold worked) you've undone some or all of the benefits of the crimp (cold working)?<br /><br /> http://www2.latech.edu/~jordan/courses/me215/ManualF03/IntroAnnealing.htm <br /><br /> http://info.lu.farmingdale.edu/depts/met/met205/annealingstages.html

 

[chuckz]

Re: Why I Crimp And Never Solder

Ralph,<br /><br />Where's the rest of the connector? A complete connector includes the backshell which has a strain releif clamp. I'll grant you no crimp is involved but a separate strain releif method is always included.<br /><br />Nice try.<br /><br />Here's my experience, just finished another 50 hour salt fog test on a motor, soldered leads with strain releif. Motor works fine and no corrosion at the wire terminations.<br /><br />Just finished reading your articles. Increases the tensile strength of a material many times decreases the shear strength making the material brittle.<br /><br />

Since the mechanical properties of the metal are essentially unchanged, the main purpose of heating in the recovery range is stress relieving cold worked alloys to prevent stress corrosion cracking or to minimize the distortion produced by residual stresses. Commercially, this low temperature treatment in the recovery range is known as stress relief annealing or process annealing.<br /><br />

If soldering applies enough heat to anneal the metal, it make the joint LESS likely to fail from vibration fatigue.

 

[Realgun]

Re: Why I Crimp And Never Solder

I crimped everthing but the wire I put under the dash came loose due to the back and forth I was doing put a real strain on it. So I took the easy way out and soldered. That I could do as the ABYC said lugs can be slodered and the rule is the wire has to be 1.5 time the diameter long.<br /><br />Good rule it worked well. However I also see that if the wire is longer than I had done prevoiusly on that part the crimp would have held. I just needed more wire to be caught. <br /><br />That 6 guage wire is hard to get the insulation off!

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: Why I Crimp And Never Solder

LIC, I think that is Heating in the recovery stage which is at a temp less than the recrystallization temp (250F for Cu) Solder melts at 420F so when you solder you have exceeded the recovery stage. <br /><br />

During recrystallization stage, there is a significant drop in tensile strength, hardness and a large increase in the ductility of the material

As for the connector, that appears to be all there is. See for yourself:<br /> http://www.detoronics.com/products_dt.asp <br /><br />Now would some strain relief close to the solder joint qualify as a mechanical connection for the ABYC? I have no idea. My point was it is possible to have a "proper" solder joint that would be considered unacceptable to the ABYC and their words were chosen carefully.<br /><br />I'll just end with quote <br /><br />

SOLDERING PROCESS<br />Soldering is the process of joining two metals by the use of a solder alloy, and it is one of the oldest known joining techniques. Faulty solder joints remain one of the major causes of equipment failure and thus the importance of high standards of workmanship in soldering cannot be overemphasized.

from a good primer on soldering:<br /> http://www.circuittechctr.com/guides/7-1-1.shtml

 

[chuckz]

Re: Why I Crimp And Never Solder

You are looking at one characteristic of the material and equating it to the overall strength. Yes tensile strength and hardeness decrease but ductility increases. Ductility allows the material to be flexed more without failure. Hardened steel is routinely annealed so it doesn't shatter. <br /><br />I've seen hundreds if not thousands of these mil spec connectors. They are always strain releived. Because of the population density of the connector you cannot strain releive each connector separated, however the cable is always strain releived. There are installation and system design requirements that have to be met. These connectors are tested and qualified with the recommended strain releif.<br /><br />I don't know why you would want to use Mil-Spec connectors in a boat because they are hugely expensive. I'm sure if you used Mil-spec connectors approved for a marine environment (Not vacuum pressure connectors) and they were properly installed, they would exceed ABYC standards.<br /><br />Lastly, I agree with you. Soldering demands high workmanship requirements to be done properly. It is not fair to compare improperly soldered joints or improperly crimped joints. Either method done properly is acceptable but crimping requires a much lower skill level and is therefore probably the better choice for the average DIY project.