Bought a 1998 Sea Ray Sundancer 270 wide beam with rot...

[drewm3i]

I have been a long time lurker of these forums and have contributed a bit. I have seen many of the projects on here over the years including Ted's Formula and Frisco's Sea Ray, in addition to one 90s Larson? Monterey? express Cruiser restore that I can't seem to find anymore.

Anyway, we picked the boat up for 17k. She has one new motor. Based on the tap and screwdriver test, transom is solid and there are no leaks. Both motors run pretty well and one is new in 2016. Almost all gauges and systems work. She is 30' LOA, sleeps 6, and has built in ac (a must for us in the Florida Keys), full canvas, cockpit covers, etc.

Unfortunately, I got ahead of myself and failed to see the rotten aft bulkhead . This bulkhead is a very small one and doesn't seem very structural to me based on my experience on other boats (this is my fifth). The rot has spread halfway up each motor mount stringer (confirmed by tap test and drill) and into the starboard fuel tank stringer/divider (no glass at all and also not attached to anything minus the hull, so I wonder if it's structural also), and into another bulkhead. The aft bulkhead is only rotten in the middle as the sides are solid. The port side seems rot free, while the starboard side has the rot. The bilge sides and main stringers seem very solid and the wood looks dry.

At this point, I am not sure how to proceed. The upholstery is very nice. All tanks are plastic so I don't have to worry about them. The cabin is super clean and nice. The outside needs a buff, wax, ding repairs, and new decals. The canvas needs some tears sewn. The dash needs new acrylic panels, but all gauges work. The drives need paint, maybe bellows. I do all work myself. This is not my first go around with the exception of the rot--never fixed that myself before. Should I resell her and keep looking (had two great Chaparral's before her)? Or fix her up to use/flip (I've made about 3k each on my last two boats). All fixed up, she could go for 25k or more!

 

[drewm3i]

No Title

I attached some photos with explanations.

 

[tpenfield]

A friend of mine has a 1996 Sea Ray 270, but with a single 7.4 engine. The structure looks pretty much the same though.

I would make a simple diagram of the structure and where the moisture/rot currently resides. Drill some additional test holes to verify if moisture in present in any areas that you have not already checked. the problem with bulkhead moisture/rot is that the stringers all join at the bulkhead and that is how moisture spreads to the stringers, etc.

One of the biggest challenges with a cruiser style boat (Sundancer) is that it is hard to get at the structure for repair. the stringers along side of the fuel tank(s) are most likely the main stringers. So, rot in those areas will be a concern. also areas that are wet this year will probably be rotted in another year or two. the diagram of the structure and where the moisture/rot currently resides will help you plan out the repair.

It sounds like the engines should come out so that you can do a good job of repairing the engine mount stringers. this will also allow you to get a better look at the transom, as many can feel solid, only to be the next on the list to start rotting.

Anyway, sorry for your tale of woe. I certainly have been there done that with my Formula 330. Fixing it was well worth it and the sooner you get to it the less there is to fix.

 

[alldodge]

Aft bulkhead showing rot would make my first guess either the water system lines leaking or the A/C draining into the forward bilge and not getting dried out.

As Ted mentioned, drill some holes to check out how far it goes

 

[Scott Danforth]

Time to read the links in the diy sticky in the restoration forum and get busy with removing motors and drives

 

[drewm3i]

Thanks for the input guys. I have drilled some holes to determine the extent of the rot and yes it has spread some from that aft bulkhead. I want to fix this so badly, but am feeling very overwhelmed. I don't even know how I could get access to the areas I would need to access to make the repairs. As it stands, I have no place to work without paying a boatyard a crazy amount, no trailer to move it/store it at my in-laws house that has land, no hoist or forklift to remove everything, and I have never undertaken anything like this. Yes I've done plenty of mechanical work, but this is totally different. I am tempted to just put it up for sale, but this boat would be perfect after it was gone through, I just don't know if I am up to it. I also just paid $800 in marina storage and tax/registration. Ugh, this is a mess!

 

[Baylinerchuck]

Very nice looking boat. Looks like a lot of work ahead according to the pics you posted. Don't think there are any easy answers.

 

[tpenfield]

Thanks for the input guys. I have drilled some holes to determine the extent of the rot and yes it has spread some from that aft bulkhead. I want to fix this so badly, but am feeling very overwhelmed. I don't even know how I could get access to the areas I would need to access to make the repairs. As it stands, I have no place to work without paying a boatyard a crazy amount, no trailer to move it/store it at my in-laws house that has land, no hoist or forklift to remove everything, and I have never undertaken anything like this. Yes I've done plenty of mechanical work, but this is totally different. I am tempted to just put it up for sale, but this boat would be perfect after it was gone through, I just don't know if I am up to it. I also just paid $800 in marina storage and tax/registration. Ugh, this is a mess!

I came across some of your posts from a few years ago on the Chaparral forum asking about wood and boat structures. So, I assume that you are somewhat aware and knowledgeable, just not experienced. We all start out inexperienced, but somehow we prevail.

You mentioned that you paid $17K for the boat, which is slightly favorable vs. the market, but not overly so. Did you get a survey when you bought it? If so, was there mention of the moisture/rot?

If you go to sell it, rather than fixing it, I would assume that a buyer would get a survey . . . or maybe even stumble across this thread on the Internet. So the question would be assuming a buyer became aware of the structural issues, what would you think the value of the boat would be? (not a lot . . .)

Anyway, I think that is your dilemma, sell it for a loss or put some money and time into it to regain the value.

You will need to take a bunch of 'stuff' out of the boat (engines, tanks, etc). The toughest things may be the engines, as you will have to set up a hoist or if you know folks with a backhoe or some equipment like that. I would take some time and look through the restoration forum here and see the various things that people did to overcome some of these challenges and obstacles, and see how you feel about tackling this.

There are a few people who have taken on cruiser style boat restorations/repairs, which is a bit of a different game than runabout boat restorations. Myself ( tpenfield ), AllDodge , bigdirty, zool , GWPSR and a few others . . .

Can you post some more pictures of the structure for a wider view, and even some looking forward underneath the deck from the engine bay? Any way to get some pictures from the cabin looking back under the deck (if you remove a panel or two)? Often the close-up pictures (that you posted) are hard to understand, because they lack context. I would think that doing a diagram of the structure and where the rot/moisture resides would help understand if you want to take this on or bail out.

 

[Scott Danforth]

Thanks for the input guys. I have drilled some holes to determine the extent of the rot and yes it has spread some from that aft bulkhead. I want to fix this so badly, but am feeling very overwhelmed. I don't even know how I could get access to the areas I would need to access to make the repairs. As it stands, I have no place to work without paying a boatyard a crazy amount, no trailer to move it/store it at my in-laws house that has land, no hoist or forklift to remove everything, and I have never undertaken anything like this. Yes I've done plenty of mechanical work, but this is totally different. I am tempted to just put it up for sale, but this boat would be perfect after it was gone through, I just don't know if I am up to it. I also just paid $800 in marina storage and tax/registration. Ugh, this is a mess!

Breath.......relax.....with our help, you've got this. your looking at the elephant wondering how you're going to eat it... the answer is with a fork and knife one bite at a time.

first, before you panic, realize it will be about $2k or more for materials and incidentals just on the rot you have shown your total expense will be more with moving the boat, etc.

step 1 - find a place you can work on the hard
step 2 - get boat to that place - call boat movers, rent a trailer, buy a trailer, etc.
step 3 - remove the interior from the cockpit and aft area
step 4 - remove the drives
step 5 - remove the motors (either build a wooden gantry if the boat is on a trailer or hire a truck crane)
step 6 - document the engine compartment with pictures, sketches, measurements, etc
step 7 - clean out engine compartment
step 8 - buy the proper PPE (see link in DIY sticky)
step 9 - fire up the saw and remove the floor
step 10 - breath, its all going to work out
step 11 - document everything under the floor with pictures, sketches, measurements, etc
step 12 - remove tank(s), water logged foam, etc.
step 13 - remove rotten stringers and bulkheads
step 14 - grind, grind, grind, grind and grind some more getting the hull ready for new stringers and bulkheads
step 15 - fire up the circular saw and make new bulkheads, stringers, mounts, etc.
step 16 - bed in all the stuff you just made
step 17 - tab in all the stuff
step 18 - replace everything that will be under the floor
step 19 - foam as required
step 20 - redeck as required
step 21 - breath
step 22 - gel coat all you work
step 23 - add in all the other stuff in the bilge area
step 24 - install the motors
step 25 - align the motors
step 26 - replace the drives
step 27 - replace the interior
step 28 - get boat back in the water
step 29 - enjoy boat.

 

[tpenfield]

I have one caveat to what Scott posted. . . I would not do step #9 (cut out the floor) unless it is the only way to access the rotted stringers, etc., once you have removed everything that you can remove. Cut only the amount of floor (deck) that you absolutely need to cut.

If there is a large deck hatch on the floor, then that can be your access. I was fortunate on my Formula repair that there was a deck hatch that covered most of the main cockpit floor. . . So I lifted it up and did not have to cut any of the cockpit floor.

Keep in mind that the boat is of the more modern 2-piece construction, different than the 1980's and 1990's runabouts that we mostly see on the resto forum. So, the demolition and repair will be different in that regard.

 

[alldodge]

If you could find a trailer (borrow or buy) do you have something to pull it?

 

[drewm3i]

If you could find a trailer (borrow or buy) do you have something to pull it?

Yes, I have access to an F-350 I could pull it with, but if I shell out 3k for a trailer, then I will not be able to afford materials...

 

[drewm3i]

I came across some of your posts from a few years ago on the Chaparral forum asking about wood and boat structures. So, I assume that you are somewhat aware and knowledgeable, just not experienced. We all start out inexperienced, but somehow we prevail.

You mentioned that you paid $17K for the boat, which is slightly favorable vs. the market, but not overly so. Did you get a survey when you bought it? If so, was there mention of the moisture/rot?

If you go to sell it, rather than fixing it, I would assume that a buyer would get a survey . . . or maybe even stumble across this thread on the Internet. So the question would be assuming a buyer became aware of the structural issues, what would you think the value of the boat would be? (not a lot . . .)

Anyway, I think that is your dilemma, sell it for a loss or put some money and time into it to regain the value.

You will need to take a bunch of 'stuff' out of the boat (engines, tanks, etc). The toughest things may be the engines, as you will have to set up a hoist or if you know folks with a backhoe or some equipment like that. I would take some time and look through the restoration forum here and see the various things that people did to overcome some of these challenges and obstacles, and see how you feel about tackling this.

There are a few people who have taken on cruiser style boat restorations/repairs, which is a bit of a different game than runabout boat restorations. Myself ( tpenfield ), AllDodge , bigdirty, zool , GWPSR and a few others . . .

Can you post some more pictures of the structure for a wider view, and even some looking forward underneath the deck from the engine bay? Any way to get some pictures from the cabin looking back under the deck (if you remove a panel or two)? Often the close-up pictures (that you posted) are hard to understand, because they lack context. I would think that doing a diagram of the structure and where the rot/moisture resides would help understand if you want to take this on or bail out.

Yes I do have some knowledge of how boats are built. The problem is the generator mount was hiding the aft bulkhead so that I could not see it while doing the inspection. When I got on all fours after buying the boat I could tell right away there was I problem. I never get surveys as I am more than capable of looking for rot myself, I just had a bad day and was overly excited and made an emotional purchase, WHICH I WILL NEVER do again.

IMO 17k for this boat with no rot is a steal. Look on eBay or Boattrader and you will see boats in worse shape selling for more. I bet they have rot too...

When I get down to the boat this weekend, I will try to look through the aft cabin and access the stringers. I will take pics and report my findings.

 

[tpenfield]

>>> IMO 17k for this boat with no rot is a steal. Look on eBay or Boattrader and you will see boats in worse shape selling for more. I bet they have rot too...
<<<

Yes, the asking prices of same/similar boats range from around what you paid and on up into the $30K range. . . BUT . . . keep in mind those are asking prices, not the selling prices.

Boats usually sell from the bottom of the range of asking prices, which you can attest to. The guy with the $25-30K asking price is not likely going to sell their boat, they are only advertising it, whereas the guys in the $20K range are the ones likely to sell their boats.

Keep all of this in mind as you figure if it is worth doing or not.

 

[alldodge]

Yes, I have access to an F-350 I could pull it with, but if I shell out 3k for a trailer, then I will not be able to afford materials...

Good got something to pull it with, any chance of borrowing one. I have another but my guess is your no where near me in KY. Try to think what are the possibilities are. Mentioned you still need a place to do the work. If you can find a place what will it take to get it there and do the heavy lifting. A tree and chain hoist can work but it will be more difficult.

Your previous post mentioned these things just try to maybe look around for more options

 

[tpenfield]

Might be able to get a local boat hauler to bring it to a place where you have space to work on it. OP mentioned that the in-laws have space :noidea:

A local haul should be only $200-300

 

[drewm3i]

Does anyone have the thread for a cruiser resto a while back? I think it was either a cruisers, crownline, or Larson? I remember it had a rotted center stringerm

 

[tpenfield]

Does anyone have the thread for a cruiser resto a while back? I think it was either a cruisers, crownline, or Larson? I remember it had a rotted center stringerm

I think this is what you are referring to . . . 1993 Crownline 250 (BigDirty)

http://forums.iboats.com/forum/boat-...n-and-splashed

He hasn't been on the forums in about 18 months or so. Shortly after he restored the Crownie, he moved up to a Formula 27PC

There is also a Sea Ray 268 restoration over on Club Sea Ray that the owner had to do a bit of stringer and bulkhead work.

 

[drewm3i]

I think this is what you are referring to . . . 1993 Crownline 250 (BigDirty)

http://forums.iboats.com/forum/boat-...n-and-splashed

He hasn't been on the forums in about 18 months or so. Shortly after he restored the Crownie, he moved up to a Formula 27PC

There is also a Sea Ray 268 restoration over on Club Sea Ray that the owner had to do a bit of stringer and bulkhead work.

Yep, that's the one thanks for that pal! Ideally to do this right ($) I'm going to have to find a trailer and maybe a space as well to BORROW for nothing or cheap from someone who is interested in helping or loves boats. Right now I have a few leads, so we'll see what happens. I am really not sure how a 1998 with original upholstery and canvas, a mint cabin with no smells, and a functional boat is already rotten...just doesn't seem normal to me.

 

[drewm3i]

tpenfield so in a picture like this, what is supporting the deck?

http://forums.iboats.com/forum/boat-...96#post6902196

I thought the stringers supported a wood deck, which supported a liner? Is the liner solid fiberglass and one whole piece on cruisers? That could make everything easier for me...If that's the case, why couldn't one just fill the hull with high density foam (like a Whaler) and be done? Why even use stringers if foam also gives a hull rigidity?