Fuel Leaking out of Carb, Squirting out of main nozzle....

[fsutim]

1988 Yamaha 130, Boat sat for 12 months, would start but would not idle. I rebuilt the carbs and put on a new fuel pump. It now starts easy and will idle but idles very rough. I noticed that fuel was dumping out of the top left carbs main nozzle and then out of the front of the carb, I have attached a picture below pointing to the carb and nozzle. The nozzle almost reminds me of a water fountain spitting up water. I dont see any of the other three nozzles pouring out fuel like this. Any ideas why this is happening? Thanks!

[JB]

Stuck float or float needle.

[fsutim]

This may sound like a dumb question but Any way to unstick it by lightly tapping the side of the carb with a hammer, or does it need to come off.

[flounderman]

Did you buy a kit or re-use old parts? Taping may un-stick it but it will not fix it.

[JB]

You need to find and remove the cause of the sticking float or leaking needle valve.

[fsutim]

I took off the carb and opened up the bottom bowl and took off the float and needle valve and readjusted it. The carb was rebuilt with a new carb kit last week. When I put the carb back on it now wont start on its own. After growing frustrated I sprayed some starter fluid in the carb and it would start for about 3-4 seconds then die out as if it were running out of gas. While it was stalling I would prime the bulb which was stiff and that didnt change it from stalling. The only way it would restart is if I sprayed starter fluid in the carb and it would then quickly die out again. Any ideas where to go from here. It was running and starting pretty good when the float was stuck just not idling very well. Now it doesn't want to start and wont stay running.

[JustJason]

first.... even though it's probably not the problem... check your compression.
then check for spark with a spark board or other spark checker.
Then with a timing light, check your base timing.
Then syncronize all the mechanical linkages in the carbs. all of the throttle plates should be closed completely.
Then turn in all of the idle adjustment screws all the way in until they LIGHTLY seat. then turn them all out 1 and 1/2 turns. Now try it, it should fire off if you did everything correctly.

On a side note.... if the bowl vent in the carb is clogged, and you missed it during the rebuild, you can get fuel to pour out of the main nozzles.

[JB]

With due respect, Jason, he has already proved that the trouble is in the fuel supply. Why waste time messing with compression and ignition??

Tim, I think you have introduced a new trouble. Are you working with the factory Service Manual?

[JustJason]

With due respect back to ya JB.... from what I read in this thread, the OP hasn't proved anything.

On an outboard a compression check takes all of 10 minutes... so why wouldn't you do it? A spark check takes all of 1 minute if you have the right tools.... So again... why wouldn't you do it?
I've never heard somebody calling a compression and ignition check on an outboard a waste of time before.

On those yamaha's... Depending on the carb thats on it, sometimes they will be a 2 barrel 2 stroke carb(as opposed to individual carbs) with only 1 float. Sometimes the float boat has 2 seperate sealed chambers, with 2 floats. you need to know what your working with, and how carb's work.

[fsutim]

I have been using a Clymer manual. I checked compression yesterday and got between 116 - 120 on all four cylinders. Any idea which direction to go from here?

[rodbolt]

ideas?
yep.
lets get that fuel system fixed,correctly.
do your carbs have a single float per carb or twin floats per carb?

[fsutim]

There are two floats in each carb.

[JB]

Hmmmmmm. All of the evidence I see points to fuel. None to compression or ignition.

Maybe waste of time wasn't the best terminology.

If introducing fuel (albeit in the form of deadly poison starting fluid) allows the engine to start and run until that fuel is exhausted, how do you justify distracting attention from that evidence to test other systems that are obviously working??

Yes, Tim: Never use starting fluid (ether). It has no lubricant and can cause serious damage. Use fuel premix.

[rodbolt]

ok, lets get them carbs off and the fuel bowls removed.
remove the mainjets,the 12mm bress plugs with a slot, carefully check the orange oring on the jet tip for damage.
remove the idle fuel jet plugs then the idle fuel, manual may call them pilot fuel.
carefully clean the bowls and jets. set aside.
now remove the float pins,floats and needles.
carefully clean the needle seats with a cotton swap DO NOT use metal tipped objects as the seats are NOT replacable.
carefully inspect the needle tips with a magnifying glass.
if the rubber is scared or has a ridge toss them for new ones.
now with good needles install a new fuel bowl gasket,install the floats,with the carb body still upside down measure from the gasket to the top of the float at the front edge, should be .63" plus or minus .02".
thats roughly 5/8ths of an inch.
if the tang on the float needs to be adjusted the float should be removed,the tang bent and the height rechecked.
dont try to bend the tang with the float installed as its possible to jam the needles into the seats.
I cant remember the float drop spec but if you flip the body right side up the floats should drop 3/8ths of an inch or so and the needles will pull off the seats.
while the carbs are off remove the fuel pump and inspect the diaphram, I reccomend simply replacing the pump as its not much more than the kit but thats up to you.
clean the filter and cup.
carefully check that the quick connect fitting on the lower pan can flow fuel. orings go bad here too.
button it all back up,do the link and sync and go boating.

[fsutim]

Carbs were rebuilt last weekend with new carb kits. All parts in the kit were used. Every screw or jet was taken out and cleaned and all holes and orifices were sprayed with carb cleaner and compressed air. It was gunk free and clean when I put it back together. Floats were set to .50 inch per my manual. I would hate to have to break the carbs back open again but if thats what needs to be done I will do it. The funny thing is it started and ran ok but idled kind of rough when the main nozzle on the top left carb was pouring gas, then I take the top carb off and check and adjust the float and now it wont run at all. Any avenues to try before I break down the carbs again?

[rodbolt]

had they been properly rebuilt you would not have been posting about a leaking needle.
couple that with I really dont care if they were rebuilt at breakfast if you get trash in them at brunch you get to do it again at lunch.
by spraying a flammable liquid,however incorrect your procedure, and it runs it shows we do have spark at the correct time and most likly decent compression.
would still be nice and quick to check.
what you have demonstrated that out of intake,compression,ign and power the one cycle missing is the intake of the correct air/fuel ratio.
given that fact I would very very strongly suspect the fuel system.
can you get fuel to the pump? can you get fuel to both fuel bowls?
can you move the fuel from the bowl,through the pilot and main jet to the intake track?
can you move air/fuel from the intake to the piston crown?
see where I am going with this?
there is only ONE cause for fuel to leak out of the emulsion nozzle and that is the needle valve for what ever reason failed to seal on the seat.
I am with JB, lay off the starting fluid. not only is it useless it can burn a piston very rapidly.
then you have two problems.
the original carb issue and a piston issue.
dunno where your getting your specs from but carefully double check them.
so, can we get fuel to the pump?through the pump?into the bowls? into the intake?
solve where your gas is missing and your done just try not to create problems solving another.

[JustJason]

there is only ONE cause for fuel to leak out of the emulsion nozzle and that is the needle valve for what ever reason failed to seal on the seat.

I respect your experience and judgement rodbolt, but I have seen carbs with clogged to high hell bowl vents, and they can (not always will) pour fuel out of the carbs.

Fsutim.... Did you use new gaskets between the carb and engine? Spray some foaming oil inbetween the carb and engine and see if it sucks it in while cranking. I use the Jrude 6 in 1 stuff here....

http://www.usboatsupplies.com/mm5/me...gory_Code=BEJE

I believe its the same stuff as Bel-ray oil company 6 in 1 oil that you can find at most cycle shops.

Just for giggles to, while cranking the engine, put your hand over the venturi of the suspected carb and see if it feels like your hand is getting sucked in, or blown off.

If you squeeze the primer bulb, does it firm up completely? And when it firms up, is fuel leaking then, or only while cranking?

[James R]

The question arises, what solvent did you use to clean the carbs? If you employed that spray type,so called, carb cleaner then there is a good chance that you have still have congealed gasoline additives floating about in the carbs, brown crap for want of a better term.
Spray solvent not only is generally incapable of breaking down the "brown crap" but it can damage carb parts.
I use Gunk products carb and parts cleaner, comes in a 1gallon can.Sometimes needs more than one soak, flush and blow dry to do it but it gets the job done.
Your needle is still passing fuel.
Please take the advice of the knowlegeable gentlemen on this forum.

[rodbolt]

jason
the particular carbs in this disscussion have no bowl vents,even if they did a clogged bowl vent makes the needle leak as the air pressure above the float prevents the float from rising thus causing a needle leak.
this carb is more similar to the backdraft carb and uses very large main air jets that hold NO fuel to clog, unless they sink or bugs make nests they just dont clog.
occasionally I will soak a stripped fuel bowl but I havent soak an outboard carb body in over 20 years.
I use CRC-06064 spray and or combustion chamber cleaner.
I do have some very fine wire drills and will use strands of copper wire to clear bowl passages.
goes back to what I said,the only cause of fuel leaking out of the emulsion tube is a leaking needle.
why it leaks I am not there to see.
beauty about the V4, 2.6L v6 carb design using the twin floats is the needles,pilot air circuit,main air circuits are all above the liquid level and rarely clog due to sitting.
sinking is a different story.come to think of it last week I did the carbs on an F100,a s150 and a 94 V4.
also got to do the VST and fuel system on a Z300.
gotta love E-10 fuels.
keeps my horse in hay and makes for a merry Christmas.
what the above poster is NOW describing is a lack of fuel in the fuel bowl or he isnt using the choke correctly.
now we gotta find out why.
either the quick connect is blocked,the filter is blocked both carbs have all 4 needles blocked or all four floats are incorrectly set.
remember he is posting now about it will run if a flammable gas is introduced seperatly from the carbs and will run until the combustables are gone.
shows me a lack of fuel in the intake and clyinders.
goes back to what I keep preaching, you MUST understand what each subsystem does and how it can affect the rest of the subsystems in a system.
that and Suck,Squeeze,Bang and Blow.
if all 4 are present it simply runs as designed,if it does not run as desiged figgue out which of the 4 is missing.

[parrfive]

You know ive been soaking carbs in carb cleaner for 25 years and have never had 1 problem. I use chemtool carb cleaner in the 20-gallon container with an air-controlled agitator. We do at least 75 sets a year. I personally don’t believe you can get a carb clean with a spray can and a piece of wire. Im sure Yamaha would say that we’ve just been lucky.

[rodbolt]

over the years I have seen carb bodies and throttle bodies destroyed by soaking couple that with certain coatings wont withstand certain chemicals and no one will say excactly which I quit soaking carb bodies on outboards. as the bodies contain NO fuel there is really no reason to spend the time soaking them on the V yamahas or most any yamaha carb.
maybe the old mercs but the jonnyrudes SPECIFICALLY stated NO SOAKS.
at 75 sets a year I could not make it.
I to have been doing this work for the better part of the past 35 years. you wont believe how many Holleys and Rochesters and webers I have seen the soak tanks tear up.
I have also seen the tank tear up the throttle body assy on HPDI's and the shaft seals on both the 2.6L and the 3.1L carbed motors.
these seals ARE NOT replaceable nor repairable.
thats why I quit years ago.
no one from Yamaha,Merc or suzuki will actually give a chemical reference and no one from the chemical companies will warrenty the soak application.
the best I ever used was an ultrasound cleaner, other than it was slow as molasses.
as I am billing at 85 per hour I try not to waste time on a job that doesnt require it.
most 2.6L v6 motors take just under 2 hours,a v4 about 1.5 a carbed 3.1 about 3, the VST on HPDI or OX66 about 45 min.
the trick is to learn what works for you and your customers and go with it.
kinda like watching in amazement in south america at rinseing Racor filters out in a 5 gallon bucket of gas.
something we would never think of here.
there that gas is about 60 cents for the entire bucket,most likly cheaper than the actual bucket.
the Racor,if actually avalible is almost 65 dollars.

[fsutim]

what you have demonstrated that out of intake,compression,ign and power the one cycle missing is the intake of the correct air/fuel ratio.
given that fact I would very very strongly suspect the fuel system.
can you get fuel to the pump? can you get fuel to both fuel bowls?
can you move the fuel from the bowl,through the pilot and main jet to the intake track?
can you move air/fuel from the intake to the piston crown?
see where I am going with this?
there is only ONE cause for fuel to leak out of the emulsion nozzle and that is the needle valve for what ever reason failed to seal on the seat.
.

The top carb is no longer leaking fuel. After the top carb was pouring fuel out of the top left main nozzle, I took it off and took out the suspect needle and float and put it back on and checked the float height. After putting the carb back on the engine I now cant start the engine and fuel is no longer leaking out of the carb as it was before I took it off.

[fsutim]

What the above poster is NOW describing is a lack of fuel in the fuel bowl or he isnt using the choke correctly.
now we gotta find out why.
either the quick connect is blocked,the filter is blocked both carbs have all 4 needles blocked or all four floats are incorrectly set.
remember he is posting now about it will run if a flammable gas is introduced seperatly from the carbs and will run until the combustables are gone.
shows me a lack of fuel in the intake and clyinders.
goes back to what I keep preaching, you MUST understand what each subsystem does and how it can affect the rest of the subsystems in a system.
that and Suck,Squeeze,Bang and Blow.
if all 4 are present it simply runs as designed,if it does not run as desiged figure out which of the 4 is missing.

Should I start by checking the quick connect and fuel filter? How about spraying in a fuel/oil mix into the carbs and seeing if that will allow it to turn over. As you said it seems like a fuel issue, although I'm just not sure where to start.

[JustJason]

Thanks for the info Rodbolt.... I had no idea that that particular carb didn't have a bowl vent..... I thought every carb had to have a bowl vent. I certainly haven't been in every carb ever... so I guess that's my new learned thing of the day. Kudos.

Fsutim.... Do your carbs have drains on the bottom? If so, have you pulled a drain yet to see if fuel came out of the bowl?
If you can squeeze the primer bulb and it firms up.... then either the carbs are filling up properly, or there is a restriction/blockage someplace after the primer bulb but before the needle/seat in the carb.
If the carbs are full.... you should be able to start and run the motor for a minute without the fuel tank even hooked up.

[Les MacDougall]

Shouldn't you be able to maually open the Throtlle, while looking into the Carb and see a spary og fuel?

Les